Connor's acting, bad writing -- Trip weeping in Forgotten
- Thread starter commodore64
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I love that episode. I think that the reason the scene really hit me is that Archer hadn't never reacted to the loss of a friend this way before...
I don't remember this episode FORGOTTEN at all. Just thought you'd appreciate the irony of that!
^ Bitterly ironic, given the episode's subject matter of personal loss and continuing to remember someone after their gone. I'm sure plenty posters here will remember it on your behalf.
Slightly off topic here but...
I loved how "In a Mirror Darkly, Part II" perfectly mirrored the Archer rallying the troops scene from this episode's teaser. Camera angles in the Launch Bay and everything.
Slightly off topic here but...
I loved how "In a Mirror Darkly, Part II" perfectly mirrored the Archer rallying the troops scene from this episode's teaser. Camera angles in the Launch Bay and everything.
That is ironic! It was good, not great ... so not a huge a surprise you forgot.
Definately, it was IMO one of the better episodes of Season 3 and part of a great arc at the end of the season - Azinti Prime all the way through to Zero Hour.
I agree was good to finally have Trip come to terms with his sis's death! And to me furthered it in later eps when had to deal with more deaths!
Since I didn't really care about Trip and his reactions in general the ep was interesting just the acting by CT was riddles with bad choices.JB played T'Pol perfect as someone back to being Vulcan but who had gained some understanding of humans and their emotions.The blubbering choice made her choice stand out.
Interesting. Of the big 3, I thought Connor was the only one who didn't require much help from the writing to put forth an interesting and on point performance.
As for the writing in the Forgotten; to me, the main point was to wrap up one of the two season long arcs for Trip, that is, his inability or unwillingness to face the death of Lizzie. It was the culmination of what had been building all season for Trip.
Trip had been trying to put Lizzie's death on the same level as the rest of the people who died in the attack and later, on the same level as fellow crewmen who died. This way, he could avoid dealing personally with Lizzie's death just as he avoided dealing with fellow crewmen's deaths.
By Archer forcing him to deal with that individual crewman's death on a personal level, it also forced Trip to deal with Lizzie's death personally, because as Trip had told us, her death was the same as fellow crewmen. Also, being forced to work closely with the one Xindi (Degra) most responsible for Lizzie's death helped push Trip closer to a breakdown.
So for me, the writing in this episode worked well. That, coupled with Trinneer's masterful handling of the material is what made the episode special.
One other thing, men crying in scenes can be touchy for me. If you show it, there had better be a damn good reason for the tears and the actor had better be able to pull it off realistically and with just the right amount of emotion for the situation. The death of a younger sibling was one of those "good" reasons for man tears. Connor's "breakdown" scene with T'Pol was nearly perfect, understated but full of obvious emotion. I think he even managed to pull a poignant and in-character response from Jo also. But I think the writer and director have to get at least some of the credit here too.
This is one thing I've always wondered about this episode - did Archer force him to deal with the individual crewman's death on purpose because he hoped or knew it would make Trip finally face Lizzie's death, or was it just hapenstance.
I'm not sure that's exactly what was on Archer's mind when he asked trip to write the letter. He had to deal with a crippled ship, several deaths among the crew, an act of piracy and an important meeting with Degra. I don't think Trip's state of mind was his top priority at this moment. I'm more inclined to think that he asked him to write the letter to prevent any 'explosive' meeting between Trip and Degra. Of course it backfired.
To get back to the initial topic, I have to agree with gblews, I thought that the episode worked well and balanced between the two plots the affect of war on a personal level through Trip's storyline and the need to put apart personal distrust to work for the greater good and stop war through Archer and Degra's storyline.
Enterprise liked to reveal details at the last second. I was just watching Silent Enemy today (really good episode) and there's a scene in it when Trip tells Archer that he got a letter from Natalie breaking off their relationship. Are we supposed to feel bad about this information? We never heard anything about Trip having a girlfriend prior to the launch of the Enterprise. He even mentions to T'Pol two or three episodes earlier in "Breaking the Ice" that he was involved in three relationships in his life, none of them ending well. Why are we supposed to feel bad for Trip that his relationship with a woman we never heard of or never will hear of again is over? At least with Janeway, we actually got to see her fiance in the pilot episode of Voyager. Of course, he was completely forgotten about afterwards, except in only one episode when she learns he got remarried I think.
Trip made reference to a nephew in the first season but never talked about his sister until The Expanse, which just happened to occur where his family lived. Hell, even Archer didn't seem to know he had a sister, despite the fact that they've been best friends for years. The Forgotten was a great episode but even here, Trip having to deal with the death of a completely random crewmember we never met or even heard of.
Archer came across like an ass for insisting that Trip write that letter at that moment. Still, that was one of the few episodes that actually dealt with Trip's grief. He's angry the first two episodes about his sister's death and then it's mostly forgotten. Phlox states that neuropressure will help him sleep yet fails to note that Trip's lack of sleep isn't from any physical problems. It's from grief over his sister's death.
Trip made reference to a nephew in the first season but never talked about his sister until The Expanse, which just happened to occur where his family lived. Hell, even Archer didn't seem to know he had a sister, despite the fact that they've been best friends for years. The Forgotten was a great episode but even here, Trip having to deal with the death of a completely random crewmember we never met or even heard of.
Archer came across like an ass for insisting that Trip write that letter at that moment. Still, that was one of the few episodes that actually dealt with Trip's grief. He's angry the first two episodes about his sister's death and then it's mostly forgotten. Phlox states that neuropressure will help him sleep yet fails to note that Trip's lack of sleep isn't from any physical problems. It's from grief over his sister's death.
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Well, I think the writers were assuming we had forgotten about Lizzie and that Archer wanted Trip to come to grips with it. Again, why the writing choice sucked.
Trip is a plug and play character. I think Connor was fine, but not a break away actor for ENT. I actually thought Billingsley would be the break away actor, but I haven't seen him in much since the show ended -- too bad, waste of talent. John B. managed to make a rather two-dimensional character interesting.
Trip is a plug and play character. I think Connor was fine, but not a break away actor for ENT. I actually thought Billingsley would be the break away actor, but I haven't seen him in much since the show ended -- too bad, waste of talent. John B. managed to make a rather two-dimensional character interesting.
Some of this is caused by having multiple writers. They are given an outline of characters, but the writer for episode 6 may be working on the script at the same time as the writer of episode 3. If those episodes conflict a bit it should be the lead writer/creator's job to edit. That leads to another problem. It was evident early on that they thought the public would not notice discrepancies, or that those who do notice don't really matter. That came to light over Trip's accent after they decided to change his home state to Florida and took a "no one will no the difference" attitude.
Personally, I think the actors did a great job with what they were given. Also, I don't know any other series that lives under the microscope like the Star Trek line.
Personally, I think the actors did a great job with what they were given. Also, I don't know any other series that lives under the microscope like the Star Trek line.
I agree with gblews here. I was a lot closer to grief when this episode aired, and I think I would have had a way different reaction to it if I thought it was in any way fake or manipulative. That said, I would never be so presumptuous as to try to define a right or wrong way to grieve - or give it an expiration date. I think there are people, soldiers in combat certainly, who stuff their feelings into a lock box because they cannot indulge their grief and do their jobs. They wall off that part of themselves because letting it distract them will get them and their comrades killed. But like any container, if you don't let off the pressure a little bit every once in a while, you get an explosion, or, in this case, a breakdown.
I think Trip spent the better part of season 3 in denial - not denial that his sister was dead, but that it mattered more to him than any of the other casualties. In that way he was able to put himself on a par with everyone else in the crew: got a job to do, gonna do it. To examine the Xindi in the light of his own loss would be excruciatingly painful, but also set himself apart from them. Without any other family, he would be alone, trying to deal with the loss. So, he doesn't.
I do believe that Archer knows in Forgotten that Trip needs to write that letter. It didn't need to be done that day; it wasn't going to be sent anytime soon. But Trip need to work with Degra, and he needed to deal with Lizzie to do it.
They say it takes a whole calendar year to begin to get over a death. I would say that's true, at least a year. I know for me, two, three, even four years in, I could see a picture, hear their names on the TV, come across a condolence note, read a fanfic story on-line, and go right back to "that place" and cry for hours.
I'd add that Archer showed his grief in other ways - he was so tightly wound that he didn't allow himself to break down. That's a consistent characteristic throughout all 4 seasons. I wish we'd seen him do so in a private moment-type scene in Season 3. (And yes, those were real tears in Archer's eyes when he saw Trip in Observer Effect.)
I think both the writing and the actor's choices in this scene were dead on: believable, resonant, affecting, and not in any way contrived.
^ Nice comments, Blue. With real people I don't think there's a right or wrong way to grieve.
I think with characters on television, I'm more sympathetic to those who don't draw attention to themselves, but suffer in mostly silence until there's a crescendo of grief, like what they intended with Forgotten. Because Trip didn't suffer in silence for a year, I was less sympathetic when he broke down.
I think with characters on television, I'm more sympathetic to those who don't draw attention to themselves, but suffer in mostly silence until there's a crescendo of grief, like what they intended with Forgotten. Because Trip didn't suffer in silence for a year, I was less sympathetic when he broke down.
I was just all over Trip and his issues and felt the scene gagworthy.I felt for most of the show after season 1 Trip was extremely immature and the experiences he was having should have matured him.I think all the fan perception of the depth of his and Archer's friendship was extremely exaggerated.Watching the marathon last night cemented that for me.I think Archer saw him as a friend but a younger one he wouldn't necessarily share things with.Archer's comments that nobody needed shoreleave more than Trip was said with a shake of the head and a smile like towards a kid. CT plays that Trip very well--he portrays the joi de vivre perfectly.The Trip of First Flight and Carbon Creek are done well. Even the Trip of Cogenitor who doesn't understand why Archer doesn't back him up is played well.Angry Trip of the Expanse who is glad to see the last of T'Pol is played well.Blubbering Trip and self-righteous Trip are just bad choices or the actor is just too limited to pull them off and maintain the drama.
