"Compare and contrast"

[JanewayRulz!]

Those were the most feared words I used to see on an essay test, and now I'm turning them around.

I've been watching a bunch of youtube vids tonight on the reimagined BSG and that (?) Villianess/Tragic heroine Admiral Helena Cain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvrahWIFZnc

and I wondered....

(Of course, by now you've GUESSED what I've wondered)

.... I wondered at the way her life paralleled that of Captain Kathryn Janeway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_eSySDQJ6g&feature=related

So, class, if you feel emboldened, please "compare and contrast" the life histories/experiences of Cain vs Janeway, and tell me why the are so different, or why they aren't.

You have 60 minutes.

You may begin.

 

[kimc]

Well they're both female and they both command a ship. Those are the only similarities I can think of.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

They both have been traumatized by experiences when they were "young".

Cain's father died in the war, and her sister was taken by the Cylons. She couldn't do anything about her Father, but she "might" have been able to save her sister had she the courage to act.

Janeway's Father and Fiance died when she was a young Lt. She might have been able to save ONE of them, had she the courage to make the choice. Because she didn't, they both died.

Did those early life experiences color the women they became?

Viewers complain that Janeway didn't send Voy Home AND blow up the array... was it because she learned early that you can't have everything?

And if so, what did Cain learn from her youthful experience?

 

[kimc]

Viewers complain that Janeway didn't send Voy Home AND blow up the array... was it becasue she learned early that you can't have everything?

An interesting point.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Their situations were similar in another aspect. They both commanded ships "alone" in the universe.

Janeway's Voyager was thrown across the galaxy, out of reach of the Federation. She had no "backup", not to mention a "higher authority" to which she could appeal for guidance. Her word was law.

Cain's Pegasus jumped away from a fight in order to save themselves. Her Colonial Fleet administration was killed, her government destroyed. She had no "backup", no "higher authority" to which she could appeal for guidance. Her word was law, at least until she met up with President Roslyn.

That's how they compare, in brief, now lets contrast how they handled XO's that crossed them.

Cain shot hers through the forehead with his own sidearm.

Janeway demoted hers and confined him to his quarters.

 

[Destructor]

Janeway slowly became more and more obsessed with the task of getting home as the show progressed. A few more seasons and she would have been airlocking people left right and centre.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They both did it with toasters.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

They both did it with toasters.

Well, I guess you are right about that one.

I had been thinking of how Cain's "needs" as Gina described them to Lt Shaw, allowed herself to be blinded to Gina's agenda.

I wonder, after the betrayal was revealed, how Cain interpreted her "needs". Were they a weakness that had to be extinguished, and was the degradation/subjugation of Gina one way she tried to remove those feelings from her life?

Or were said needs simply a fact of nature that a wise spy made use of, like the guilelessness of a new Lieutenant on the ship. And the degradation/subjugation of said spy was just what it purported to be, torture of a prisoner for its own ends?

Hard to compare that with Janeway, although I'm sure one could draw some parallels with "Counterpoint" and "Spirit Folk".

In the former, we have a spy attempt to prey upon Janeway's sexuality in order to betray her ship and its cargo of telepaths. Unlike Cain, she didn't "fall for it", but the circumstances were different. Kayshyk was wearing a big "Don't trust me" sign.

In the latter, Janeway's feelings for Michael led her to do extremely questionable things, things she didn't even consider doing in "Fairhaven". Specifically, when the ship was in danger at the end of FH, there was no question to steal energy from the holodecks (obviously something they learned to do in their years in the DQ), whereas in SF Janeway bent over backwards to save both her holographic lover and her crew. Lucky for her it worked, or I would have foreseen matricide in her future at the hands of one B'Elanna Torres.

 

[RegFan]

Their situations were very different. Voyager was thrown into the Delta Quadrant and without any shortcuts, it would have taken them decades to reach Earth. On the other hand, as far as Cain knew, the Pegasus' crew were the only humans left alive. Cain never had a clear destination, unlike Janeway. Moreover, the Voyager contacted Earth several times during the series, so they weren't even completely alone.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Oh, their situations were different, I agree.

And yet, how did each of them respond to their situation?

Within days/weeks Cain is mounting a suicide run on the Cylons, shooting her XO when he disagrees, allowing her toaster lover to be brutalized within inches of death, killing civilians and stealing their supplies to keep her own ship going.

And Janeway?

She's destroying her only way home in her lifetime, to protect a people she just met. Disciplining wayward Chief engineers with threats of demotion, and Vulcan Tactical officers with even worse, HER disappointment!

Another thread is talking about "The Void". Look at how Janeway dealt with that problem vs the way Cain via her subordinate Kendra Shaw dealt with it. Kill the families, take the goods and the technical experts and run away to "fight" another day.

Fight for who? Those human civilians you just condemned to death?

Janeway created an alliance, and not only saved her ship but her nonhuman allies as well.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't understand why the ladyparts are being so centred out here as the focus of why these two characters are the most similar when it obvious to anyone with half a brain that Cain is Ransom from the Equinox. A second ship that made dubious choices and has a big secret. Lloyd bridges played Cain in TOS BSG, so there's no question of plagiarism, but Michelle was offered the part of "Chakotay" at one point since it would have made a stupendous amount of fun if it was she who was the maquis leader who had to work with Kathy after the set up in the hind end of TNG... but it would have been the same people behind the camera doodling on legal pads so it's not like they would have written edgier stories they thought Beltran couldn't cope with, if Forbes had answered her pager.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Ummm, I think I explained "why the lady roles" are being compared/contrasted in the first post.

Simply because I was watching BSG's Admiral Cain and thinking about ST:V's Captain Janeway.

Nothing more sinister than that.

As for comparing Ransom and Janeway, well, that's a helping or two of "been there, done that."

 

[Guy Gardener]

No ma'am. Contrasting Ransom and Cain.

Ransom knew he was being a dick but didn't like it, meanwhile cain though she was doing the right thing and that's all that mattered, but they both walked down very very similar dark paths no matter their intentions or reflections during that trip.

Janeway is Adama.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Interesting.

(Of course, my mind immediately wonders... "who's Roslyn?")

 

[Guy Gardener]

If you believe the J/C propaganda you know exactly who Rosilyn is.

She just walked into Adamas bed and went to sleep with no preamble. No grand romantic gesture. Just a declaration of fact through deed that this is now exactly were she slept and where she belonged. That was so cool. The confusion on others faces when they calculated that she lived with him thereafter was hilarious because she didn't think it a big deal at all and what other people thought was irrelevant.

Could you see Chuckles doing that? Annexing Janeway's quarters?

Really?

Even Q, with all the powers of God had trouble convincing her to share a bed with him. Literally domestically or figuratively coitus.

Janeway didn't seem to have a soulmate.

Mark is Penelope (Odysseus' wife who waited 20 years loyally for her husbands return from the trojan war and the dead.) and Adam's exwife seemed to hold up to that removed status as well even before the fall of the colonies that Adama and Janeway were both in love with non-reciprocal vacuums incapable of returning their loving feelings, one due to divorce and death the other 70 thousand light years.

 

[RegFan]

You're right. Cain and Ransom are far more comparable than Cain and Janeway. I thought about the same thing earlier, but didn't post about it.

Cain ordered futile attacks on the Cylons. Ransom, on the other hand, was forced into using the aliens as fuel due to a devastating attack by hostile aliens that could have been avoided if Ransom had made a better choice. Cain honestly thought that the Cylons were all evil. Ransom, on the other hand, knew that the aliens were sentient and what he was doing was wrong, but he tried not to think about it. Ransom was less competent as a captain, but he was more moral than Cain. He also had a closer relationship with his crew, mostly due to its small size and the desperate circumstances. They both tried their best to protect their crew.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think Cain is more moral. She abided by her own code, meanwhile Ransom tied his moral compass into a bow.

However if Ransom had the balls to shoot his XO like Cain did when he noticed the waters being muddied, then Max wouldn't have been able to corrupt Ransom as well as he did. Without Max whispering in his ear the whole time, Rudy could probably have heard his own conscience. Although Cain was only following Hercules example. basic is just the worst XO in any show about space ships ever.

Recall, Janeway had the opportunity to use aliens for fuel in The Next Emanation but couldn't stomach the opportunity. Then of course she was just refusing to use the dead and buried meanwhile she could have if those people could be ground down into really good rocket fuel, conquered the planet from orbit and built processing camps, or even hijacked the portals so that the dead bodies would be sent to Voyager rather than the fixed point in space about that planet they found which had been rote for generations.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

You're right. Cain and Ransom are far more comparable than Cain and Janeway. I thought about the same thing earlier, but didn't post about it.

Cain ordered futile attacks on the Cylons. Ransom, on the other hand, was forced into using the aliens as fuel due to a devastating attack by hostile aliens that could have been avoided if Ransom had made a better choice. Cain honestly thought that the Cylons were all evil. Ransom, on the other hand, knew that the aliens were sentient and what he was doing was wrong, but he tried not to think about it. Ransom was less competent as a captain, but he was more moral than Cain. He also had a closer relationship with his crew, mostly due to its small size and the desperate circumstances. They both tried their best to protect their crew.

I too disagree with the idea of Ransom being more "moral". This is the guy who deleted the EMH's ethical subroutines to get him to vivisect Seven of Nine's brain.

One wonders who deleted Ransom's ethical subroutines. True Max was playing the (?) Wormwood role of whispering into Ransom's ear, but it was Ransom who "listened" and fell into lockstep with Max.

Hmmm.

Suddenly I'm thinking of (?) Admiral H's contention that Ransom was to replace Janeway, If Mulgrew didn't sign her contract for season 6 & 7.

Makes Seven's scene with Ransom in part 2 all the more telling.

SEVEN: State your intentions.
RANSOM: You know, once we get our enhanced warp drive back online we'll be on our way home, but it'll still take months to get there. You can spend that time in the brig, or you can become part of this crew. I'd prefer the latter.
SEVEN: I'd prefer the brig.
RANSOM: You know, Janeway's not the only Captain who can help you explore your humanity.
SEVEN: You would be an inferior role model.
RANSOM: Janeway clung to her morality at the expense of her crew. Maybe you should learn from that mistake.
SEVEN: Her only mistake was trusting you.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

If you believe the J/C propaganda you know exactly who Rosilyn is.

She just walked into Adamas bed and went to sleep with no preamble. No grand romantic gesture. Just a declaration of fact through deed that this is now exactly were she slept and where she belonged. That was so cool. The confusion on others faces when they calculated that she lived with him thereafter was hilarious because she didn't think it a big deal at all and what other people thought was irrelevant.



Janeway didn't seem to have a soulmate.

Mark is Penelope .

If Mark is Penelope, he didn't read the script, since he married someone else 4 years after the Captain left on her Voyage.

As for the "others" having to deal with Roslyn's new address, I did love the look on Tigh's face when he realized it, but what I really loved was the discomfort (?) on the 2 kids faces when the old people kissed goodbye as Roslyn escaped the mutiny for the Cylon baseship.

Getting back to Janeway's soulmate, we can't really compare the two shows, since the writers wouldn't allow her to have one, so they didn't lay the groundwork like BSG did.

Could I see Chakotay in the role, uh yeah, I could. But it would have required a different writer/producer in season 4-7 to have allowed it to occur.

 

[Cepstrum]

Ok, hold on. Two questions.

(Disclaimer: I've never seen any form of BSG.)


1. When did Janeway "demote" Chakotay? She (temporarily) relieved him of command, but he remained a commander from "Caretaker" through "Endgame". Right? The *only* demotion Janeway performed was removing Paris's acting lieutenant jg field commission to that of acting ensign (which he probably should've been to begin with). And even then she not long later restored his acting rank.


2. We know the undegunned Equinox got to the DQ first, and that it had less scrupulous crew. So why didn't *they* use the Caretaker's Array to get home? Was Janeway only given the option of use it (and leave it to the Kazon) or destroy it because the Caretaker had died? That is, while alive, would've the Caretaker refused to send the Equinox back even after he tested the crew for compatibility? He seemed a little nicer than his Nacene counterpart Suspiria, so it'd surprise me if he would yank the Equinox over and then strand it. And I don't think it's because the Kazon showed up and drove the Equinox away; they seemed incapable of approaching the Array unt *after* Mr. Nacene died.


Sorry those are OT, but they do fit with some of the material being discussed.