Communicating with pre-warp species and other translating issues

[thewanderingjack]

Thanks for the topic... the UT definitely has a lot of holes. I believe the explanation of the UT (in-world) is that it would take the incoming voice signal, translate it (internally) and then deliver it in a close approximation of the speakers original voice (ENT? MAYBE TOS?. This does present several issues, mostly already pointed out. How about when there's multiple languages involved, how does each hear their own language? Why aren't many words (that aren't cusses) not translated when a person specifically refers to a term in their own language? Why don't we hear double speak (the untranslated and translated versions)? Even in human language translation there's a lot of difficulties as many concepts don't translate well, why isn't this more of an issue with other species, as it was with the Tamarians? How do they keep communicating when the translators are missing/fail (this bits inconsistent, as many times they can't).
I think they'd have to introduce an explanation of newer UTs... quite probably an inserted chip that's psychically based.

 

[thewanderingjack]

p.s.: starships are Tardises (Tardii?) with the chameleon circuit stuck.. on lame. The UT is the telepathic translation field.

 

[Mojochi]

p.s.: starships are Tardises (Tardii?)

I'd say the plural of Tardis is Tardes, like thesis is theses. Words ending in us are pluralized with i, like cacti. Ending in um become a, like datum becomes data

 

[thewanderingjack]

I'd say the plural of Tardis is Tardes, like thesis is theses. Words ending in us are pluralized with i, like cacti. Ending in um become a, like datum becomes data

On the other hand, it is technically T.A.R.D.I.S, so the plural might be more accurately Time(s) And Relative Dimension(s) in Space... so TsARDsIS? ;-)

Damned acronyms turned proper names...

 

[Mojochi]

On the other hand, it is technically T.A.R.D.I.S, so the plural might be more accurately Time(s) And Relative Dimension(s) in Space... so TsARDsIS? ;-)

Damned acronyms turned proper names...

Nah, I still tend to adopt pluralizing like it's a word unto itself, like VISOR is VISORS, not VIsSORs. lol

 

[thewanderingjack]

but I like tsardsis :-D

 

[Timo]

I'd say the plural of Tardis is Tardes, like thesis is theses. Words ending in us are pluralized with i, like cacti. Ending in um become a, like datum becomes data

Virus isn't pluralized as viri, though, nor does plum become pla... We'd first have to establish that TARDIS is Latin to begin with, and then that English prefers to treat it in a "regular" manner, and I can see major obstacles either way.

How do they keep communicating when the translators are missing/fail (this bits inconsistent, as many times they can't).

This isn't that much of a problem if we assume the UT is a multilayer system. See VOY "Basics": taking away the badges of the heroes removes the extra computing power required for deciphering the language of the cavemen, but the implants in the ears of our heroes allow them to converse in already mastered languages such as Talaxian or Kazon.

We can then debate how many of the regular heroes actually know English. Tuvok well might, Neelix shouldn't. Sisko probably does, but does Bashir or Worf, if they have had UTs since early childhood? Kira most probably might not, although I could see her making the effort.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[thewanderingjack]

We can then debate how many of the regular heroes actually know English. Tuvok well might, Neelix shouldn't. Sisko probably does, but does Bashir or Worf, if they have had UTs since early childhood? Kira most probably might not, although I could see her making the effort.

Worf speaks Russian ofcourse. ;-)

 

[Timo]

Exactly. So is "real", UT-free mastery of English an entry requirement for Starfleet? And why does Chekov have an accent but Worf does not, especially as Worf's adoptive parents do have an accent to their English? We might choose to think Worf in fact speaks Klingon, through the UT.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[thewanderingjack]

Exactly. So is "real", UT-free mastery of English an entry requirement for Starfleet? And why does Chekov have an accent but Worf does not, especially as Worf's adoptive parents do have an accent to their English? We might choose to think Worf in fact speaks Klingon, through the UT.

Timo Saloniemi

I am on the edge of my seat... those are very good questions... also, I forget when Worf was adopted, but as someone who grew up with one language and was transplanted away from it almost completely when I was 9 (well it was still dominant at home til hm 13?) I can tell you my first language now is English, and my native language, well... I have a difficult time recalling words sometimes, and lack advanced vocabulary. Though my vocabulary was advanced for my age... it wasn't college level, or even advanced high school... so I am missing a lot when communicating. So I'd say Worf speaks Russian... then again he has (apparently) clung really tight to Klingon culture (despite having little experience with it, and only as a child).

 

[Timo]

For whatever its worth, Worf lost his Klingon parents at the age of six. But at the age of eight, he would presumably have looked much like Alexander did in "Sons and Daughters", a late teenager and active participant in the society by human standards. (Unless that was because Alexander has "hybrid vigor"?)

How much Klingon culture would Worf have ingrained in him at the age of six, in this society with many rituals and lots of storytelling? If remembering stories by rote is important to the society, then Worf retaining a knowledge of Klingon appears all the more likely.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nakita Akita]

For whatever its worth, Worf lost his Klingon parents at the age of six. But at the age of eight, he would presumably have looked much like Alexander did in "Sons and Daughters", a late teenager and active participant in the society by human standards. (Unless that was because Alexander has "hybrid vigor"?)

How much Klingon culture would Worf have ingrained in him at the age of six, in this society with many rituals and lots of storytelling? If remembering stories by rote is important to the society, then Worf retaining a knowledge of Klingon appears all the more likely.

Timo Saloniemi

As far as his accent, I knew kids that had parents with accents, but the kid didn't have an accent at all as the kid grew up where I did. Sometimes they even spoke the other language to their parents.

I think that it was implied in one of the episodes that Worf was more Klingon than other Klingons.
It may have been implied at that time he was so, because he had learned all the Klingon "heritage" stuff in a vacuum or by studying it on his own. ( I just can't imagine that I inferred all of this on my own, not being the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree here)
Worf knows all about the Klingon history, songs language bug he learned if on his own.
I don't know if his parents spoke Russian anyway. Like Picard was supposed to be from France and spoke French but had s decidedly English accent!