I've always looked as commodores as just being senior captains in Starfleet, capable of commanding a ship, a small taskforce of ships, or even a starbase.
Commodores in command of Starships?
- Thread starter Lance
- Start date
CrazyMatt said:
On the other hand, the M-5 had been already tested in simulation and everybody expected this to be an uneventful practical test. I can't imagine one good explanation why the (assumed original) captain of the Lexington was not considered fit for such a menial task.
This would qualify quite a career blow, IMHO, and if this captain of the Lexington wasn't qualified to lead the ships in the war games excercise I'd have to ask what that starship captain was qualified for in the first place.
I think Wesley was Starfleet's "man in charge" of the M-5 project. Its failure was likely a major blow to his career and why he was Governor of the Mantilles colony in TAS.
I don't believe he was the regular captain of the Lexington.
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Possibly the Lexington was between commanders at that point, awaiting refit, and Wesley borrowed it for the M-5 test because of that?
In general could a Commodore be a recently promoted Captain who stays in command of his ship until a suitable position becomes available?
A Commodore being something of a senior Captain could work assuming things were done differently in the future. Things do evolve including rank systems. Consider that both Wesley and Decker were older than Kirk and sufficient years of distinguished service got them the rank of Commodore while allowing them to retain a single vessel command if they so chose.
If so that now raises the question as to what is a Fleet Captain? Is it an actual rank or a position?
If so that now raises the question as to what is a Fleet Captain? Is it an actual rank or a position?
Just a general remark. A real-world Starfleet would have many more officers at all levels than any navy in history. There would be many more formations and assignments.
If today's naval ranks were handed down to such an organization, me, I'd expect new ranks to pop up in between older ranks, including if not especially above captain, as a direct result of this increase in complexity. Fleet captain and commodore could both fit that bill.
If today's naval ranks were handed down to such an organization, me, I'd expect new ranks to pop up in between older ranks, including if not especially above captain, as a direct result of this increase in complexity. Fleet captain and commodore could both fit that bill.
Yeah, it seems "Commodore" like "Yeoman" means something different in 23rd Century Starfleet than it did in 20th Century USN. I lean towards the former meaning something like a senior captain of some kind.
Whose to say "Fleet Captain" isn't a rank above Commodore?
Personally, I like to think a fleet captain is a grade between captain and commodore with the rank insignia being three full stripes.
It could be. But it could also be a rank above Commodore since we've only seen "Fleet Captain" mentioned once in the entirety of Trek.
It could also be that "Fleet Captain" may be a special rank created solely for Christopher Pike as recognition for something unique he did in service of the Federation/Starfleet.
We just know so little about the rank, we can let our imaginations run wild.
I always just assumed that a Fleet Captain IS a Commodore. Alternate names for the same rank.
It could be. But it could also be a rank above Commodore since we've only seen "Fleet Captain" mentioned once in the entirety of Trek.
It could also be that "Fleet Captain" may be a special rank created solely for Christopher Pike as recognition for something unique he did in service of the Federation/Starfleet.
We just know so little about the rank, we can let our imaginations run wild.
Twice.
You've forgotten Fleet Captain Garth.
It could be. But it could also be a rank above Commodore since we've only seen "Fleet Captain" mentioned once in the entirety of Trek.
It could also be that "Fleet Captain" may be a special rank created solely for Christopher Pike as recognition for something unique he did in service of the Federation/Starfleet.
We just know so little about the rank, we can let our imaginations run wild.
Twice.
You've forgotten Fleet Captain Garth.
Right you are. I forgot about Whom Gods Destroy.
Party pooper!
The probable answer to "Is Wesley the permanent captain of the Lexington?" question in my mind is answered by the probable answer to the question, "why is Wesley wearing a Starfleet Command patch?"
Since "The Omega Glory" was filmed after "The Ultimate Computer," and Bob Justman sent his now famous 'under penalty of death!' memo (basically saying "All starship members wear the same patch") to Bill Theiss on the 18th of Dec 67 ("The Ultimate Computer" finished shooting on the 14th), the answer can't be that Justman's memo influenced the selection. Even if Justman had clued Theiss in before he wrote the memo, wouldn't Theiss then have Wesley wearing the "starship arrowhead" patch?
Based on what we know from other episodes, I speculate that the "The Ultimate Computer" writing and/or production team consciously decided Wesley really worked for Starfleet Command and was given temporary command of the Lexington just for this special mission (I say special because nearly half of the starships in the fleet were involved!) and conveyed that to Theiss.
If that's not the case, why wouldn't Theiss have just assumed Wesley was the Lexington's permanent captain and then created a unique Lexington patch for Wesley's uniform, just like he had for Decker's Constellation uniform (and would do just a week later for Tracey's and Dr. Carter's Exeter uniforms)?
It has been suggested perhaps the Lexington crew wore the same patch as members of Starfleet Command. While I admit what I wrote above is all speculation, and I don't suggest my speculation is more insightful than anyone elses... that solution just seems too contrived for me based on what we see in all the other episodes that show non-Enterprise starship and Starfleet Command personnel.
As to what happened to the Lexington's real captain? Maybe he was given temporary shore duty while the M-5 tests were carried out. Why not, we saw that play out--albeit under false pretenses--for "The Menagerie Part 1:"
SPOCK: This is First Officer Spock. Per Starfleet orders this date, I have been placed in temporary command of the Enterprise. While our destination is secret, our mission is relatively simple. Starbase Command has assigned Captain Kirk medical rest leave until our return. His instructions are that you will obey my orders as you would his. First Officer out.
MCCOY: What's going on around here? Who said Jim needed a medical rest leave?
It's also possible the Lexington was between captains... again, that's speculation... that and three dollars gets you a large coffee.
Since "The Omega Glory" was filmed after "The Ultimate Computer," and Bob Justman sent his now famous 'under penalty of death!' memo (basically saying "All starship members wear the same patch") to Bill Theiss on the 18th of Dec 67 ("The Ultimate Computer" finished shooting on the 14th), the answer can't be that Justman's memo influenced the selection. Even if Justman had clued Theiss in before he wrote the memo, wouldn't Theiss then have Wesley wearing the "starship arrowhead" patch?
Based on what we know from other episodes, I speculate that the "The Ultimate Computer" writing and/or production team consciously decided Wesley really worked for Starfleet Command and was given temporary command of the Lexington just for this special mission (I say special because nearly half of the starships in the fleet were involved!) and conveyed that to Theiss.
If that's not the case, why wouldn't Theiss have just assumed Wesley was the Lexington's permanent captain and then created a unique Lexington patch for Wesley's uniform, just like he had for Decker's Constellation uniform (and would do just a week later for Tracey's and Dr. Carter's Exeter uniforms)?
It has been suggested perhaps the Lexington crew wore the same patch as members of Starfleet Command. While I admit what I wrote above is all speculation, and I don't suggest my speculation is more insightful than anyone elses... that solution just seems too contrived for me based on what we see in all the other episodes that show non-Enterprise starship and Starfleet Command personnel.
As to what happened to the Lexington's real captain? Maybe he was given temporary shore duty while the M-5 tests were carried out. Why not, we saw that play out--albeit under false pretenses--for "The Menagerie Part 1:"
SPOCK: This is First Officer Spock. Per Starfleet orders this date, I have been placed in temporary command of the Enterprise. While our destination is secret, our mission is relatively simple. Starbase Command has assigned Captain Kirk medical rest leave until our return. His instructions are that you will obey my orders as you would his. First Officer out.
MCCOY: What's going on around here? Who said Jim needed a medical rest leave?
It's also possible the Lexington was between captains... again, that's speculation... that and three dollars gets you a large coffee.
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I think the decisive question remains why they still had a unique insignia for the Exeter Crew (Captain Tracey, senior M.D. Carter) after Bob Justman's "death threats"...
I'd guess he was pretty upset after that and did not allocate any budget for the Defiant uniforms in "The Tholian Web" (so they were forced to have almost all the extras face the floor).
"Medical rest" suggests unfit for duty, doesn't it? Theoretically Commodore Wesley could have just monitored the war games standing next to the Lexington's captain.
And a close up of the Lexington's captain with a panicking Wesley pushing into the frame / taking over command would have added tension and drama to the shooting of these scenes, IMHO.
I'm not sure whether Wesley's rise to governor has to be regarded as a degradation. Let's keep in mind that Commodore Stone had himself once been a starship captain, and then spent the rest of his career overseeing repairs of starships.
Bob
On the other hand, the M-5 had been already tested in simulation and everybody expected this to be an uneventful practical test. I can't imagine one good explanation why the (assumed original) captain of the Lexington was not considered fit for such a menial task.
This would qualify quite a career blow, IMHO, and if this captain of the Lexington wasn't qualified to lead the ships in the war games excercise I'd have to ask what that starship captain was qualified for in the first place.
It may simply be dictated by Starfleet regulations, that commanding more than one vessel must only be performed by flag officers. In that case the Lexington´s regular Captain just wasn´t permitted to lead the exercise, regardless of his achievements and qualifications.
Mario
^^ That's the best explanation I've heard thus far. Sounds logical.
What would be the explanation for the higher command chair (better noticable in the screencap from "Mirror, Mirror")?
Does the Lexington happen to be Starfleet's flagship (which the Enterprise is apparently in the mirror universe) or does the extra piece making the command chair higher constitute the "flag" a flag officer transfers to the command ship (most likely a piece of inventory every starship has onboard, I'm not suggesting that Wesley carried it with him).
Bob
What would be the explanation for the higher command chair (better noticable in the screencap from "Mirror, Mirror")?
Does the Lexington happen to be Starfleet's flagship (which the Enterprise is apparently in the mirror universe) or does the extra piece making the command chair higher constitute the "flag" a flag officer transfers to the command ship (most likely a piece of inventory every starship has onboard, I'm not suggesting that Wesley carried it with him
).Bob
To be honest, I wouldn´t read much into the high back of the chair. I mean, why reserve this higher back for flag officers? What possible advantage can it bring? More comfort? Maybe. But why deprive the Captains of this privilege? They spend much more time sitting in it on their 5-year-missions, than flag officers do during the occasional war game. Other than more comfort I can´t really see any other advantage to this type of chair. On the contrary, you can´t even see what´s going on behind you! Wesley always has to swivel his chair around when addressing someone at a console there, he can´t just look over his shoulder.
Finally, the crew will know, when their ship is commanded by a flag officer, they won´t need a different chair to visually remind them of that
IMO it´s just the personal preference of the Lexington´s CO. Other than that, I can´t come up with an explanation that makes sense in-universe.
Mario
Finally, the crew will know, when their ship is commanded by a flag officer, they won´t need a different chair to visually remind them of that
IMO it´s just the personal preference of the Lexington´s CO. Other than that, I can´t come up with an explanation that makes sense in-universe.
Mario
That makes sense to me.
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