Commodore Stocker adressing Kirk as "Sir"

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by ThatsMrCaptaintoyou, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Kirk was in command of the ship. Respect for the position, regardless of rank.
     
  2. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So we're going on the assumption that earth is the enemy of the Romulan Empire and not the Federation and Starfleet? But that's mainly because they weren't referenced by that name at this point but would they support the earth in a possible conflict with the Romulans? Getting back to the original point and let us not forget that Commander Hansen did wear a uniform similar to that of the Enterprise crew! :vulcan:
    JB
     
  3. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    During the war, yeah. But that's only because the Federation didn't exist yet.

    Romulus continued to be an enemy of the Federation for centuries after that.

    At that point, it becomes impossible to have a conflict with just one member of the Federation, because all of the other members will step in to defend them. With the Federation - you got a beef with one world, you got one with them all.

    It'd be like China declaring war on California. You don't just fight one state, you fight an entire nation. Same story with the Federation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
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  4. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's partly what I was saying. But that's because the Federation wasn't officially created by the writers at this time and that is why they were earth bases and not Starbases but they would have been if this episode was written much later.
    Plus due to the destruction of the bases along the Neutral Zone I'm wondering if those other ones were finished with and the crews dispatched elsewhere as in the other episodes that even mentioning the Romulans, we never hear of any bases ever again! :vulcan:
    JB
     
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  5. BK613

    BK613 Commodore Commodore

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    In Space Seed, Starbase 12 is identifed as the "command base in this sector" (that the Enterprise is presumably in.)
    I would expect, as a Starship travels about fulfilling its many missions, the chain of command is handed off to the starbase with authority over that area. Kind of like how a commercial aircraft is passed between air traffic controllers as it flies its course. Because each ATC has authority over the local airspace the aircraft is transiting.
     
  6. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    My guess would be that outposts were different from starbases in that they didn't have facilities to support/maintain operating vessels. The outpost on Cestus 3 was commanded by a commodore, though, so there appear to be variations in size/scale.

    And we never see the outpost uniform badge after "Arena."

    Seems very likely. TMOST said that "star base command," under a commodore, is the next level of command above the starship. In the same way US Navy ships inchop/outchop the numbered fleets as they transit their geographical boundaries.

    As I have said before, TOS Starfleet seems more like a 19th century navy, with much of its peacetime strength scattered around at different stations, rather than the WW1/WW2 type where as much as possible was concentrated in a big fleet to (hopefully) win a war in one decisive battle.
     
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  7. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes I'd say the asteroid bases were simply there to watch the Neutral Zone and not much else. Obviously they had defences but not sufficient to take on a Bird of Prey with it's new plasma weaponry and cloaking technology!
    JB
     
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  8. BK613

    BK613 Commodore Commodore

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  9. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    100%

    It's a respect "sir..." not a military protocol "sir."
     
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  10. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps so, but we don't know for sure yet - mainly because we have no solid dates for the Romulan War, or a clear-cut reference to it being in the past or future of some known 22nd century timepoint.

    This issue is slightly confused by the reference to the Bolians having "an uneasy truce" with the Moropans in TNG "Allegiance". If we assume Bolians to be UFP members (although we could choose not to, too), then it seems they can be involved in conflicts (and their tentative resolutions) without involving the rest of the UFP.

    On the other hand, of course China would love to only have war with California, if that could somehow be arranged.

    The UFP doesn't seem all that strongly integrated in TOS yet. Might be that it's possible to engage its elements one by one, with the other elements only slowly joining the fray as per their treaty commitments - and some wars of Earth might go by without anybody else joining, either because these others drag their feet, or because mobilizing simply is slow business back in the 22nd century. And perhaps in the 24th still, as the joint Starfleet took its sweet time amassing against the Dominion!

    Since we lack the dates for the Romulan War, we might postulate it's a brief one, and nobody from Vulcan or Andor has time to co-declare war in any practical sense, that is, to deploy any forces, before it's all over. A brief war might also be a forgettable one, explaining why our heroes apparently have forgotten by "Balance of Terror"!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  11. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    And you were right, it's a great analogy.
     
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  12. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    The TOS UFP was like 80s EEC. The UK, a EEC member fought Argentina without the rest of the EEC in 1982. By the TNG era it was more like an ideal EU.
     
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  13. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If the TOS UFP was like the EEC or the UK, shouldn't we keep it PC and on the QT? Because if it leaks to the CIA we could all end up MIA or be put on KP.
     
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  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, STFU. :nyah:

    It's rather interesting that we never really got a plot where a Federation member other than Earth would come under separate attack. Save for Vulcan in "Unification", and there it very much appeared as if the Romulans thought they could have a private little war with an intimate little invasion army, a couple of bombards in orbit, and nothing more. Perhaps the mutual defense pact was written by the same folks who did the Sheliak treaty, and by the end of the Dominion war, the Vulcans and the Bolians are mostly through Chapter 47 and just about to sign a preliminary memorandum of potential understanding on intent to commit?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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  16. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    OMG, FR? WTF?!
     
  17. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    Yes
    David calls Kirk Sir too in TSFS. Respectfully
    Even though Stocker is wrong in so many ways he's respectful of the higher ranks on the Enterprise
     
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  18. matthunter

    matthunter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    "Damn you, sir! You WILL try!"

    "Sir" can be a term of respect, a requirement from a subordinate or a perjorative.

    English is a beautiful bitch.
     
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  19. Swedish Borg

    Swedish Borg Captain Red Shirt

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    Be that as it may, he was dangerously incompetent at commanding a starship, and maybe he was aware that Kirk "outranked" him in that area.
     
  20. ThatsMrCaptaintoyou

    ThatsMrCaptaintoyou Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Well he did serve behind a desk but Rank is Rank and regardless if he never commanded a starship seniority is seniority.