Command Dilemma in Doomsday Machine

[MikeH92467]

Stocker did mention that there was no else who could take command except perhaps a "junior officer, even less experienced than I am". So it would seem that even though he'd been a paper shuffler for a long time, he did have some shipboard experience. Perhaps the equivalent of today's "ticket punch" mentality where one of the boxes you have to fill is a certain amount of "shipboard service".

 

[Knight Templar]

Stocker did mention that there was no else who could take command except perhaps a "junior officer, even less experienced than I am". So it would seem that even though he'd been a paper shuffler for a long time, he did have some shipboard experience. Perhaps the equivalent of today's "ticket punch" mentality where one of the boxes you have to fill is a certain amount of "shipboard service".

To me, Stocker didn't come off too badly until he froze in the command chair. Before he took command and during what amounted to an apology to Kirk afterward, he seemed fairly sympathetic.

 

[J.T.B.]

While it is possible that Starfleet flag officers (senior officers above the rank of captain) may command specific spacecraft or flotillas of same (task forces, fleets, etc.), I would like to suggest that command officers such as these could also command territories. Think of it this way. While it is possible that Stone was a "portmaster" in charge of Starbase 11's internal operations, he seemed to assert authority over Kirk even before the legal proceedings began. (Kirk did report to him to begin with.) Could it be that these flag officers are not just in charge of a given base or flotilla, but also the sector of space that the base is located in?

Yeah, I think that was the way it was supposed to work. In TMoST it says that the starbases are the "immediate higher headquarters" for the starships. Which wouldn't be out of the ordinary, historically. The 19th century Royal Navy -- for my money the closest r/w equivalent to Starfleet -- had "stations" throughout the world: East Indies, China, West Africa, South Africa, North America, West Indies and so on. The main battle fleets were close to home, of course, but the stations had varying numbers of smaller cruisers assigned to them for local patrol and policing. In the event of war, the station ships would protect national interests in the region and attack enemy merchant shipping. The station commander could be anything from a commodore to a full admiral depending on the size of the station. At first some station commanders lived on an older ship in the harbor, but later on most had permanent buildings ashore.

Having the starbase commodore as the regional honcho for a certain sector makes sense to me. An exploration ship like Enterprise may be assigned to some remote reaches of space, but still officially reporting to a "local" starbase. Practically, of course, they're pretty much on their own. Big ships like Constitutions would be shuffled around as needed, but I'd like to think each starbase had some destroyers/frigates/corvettes/whatever assigned more or less permanently.

That seems to be a different kind of commodore than Bob Wesley was, although maybe he left the starbase to his second-in-command while he got some "center seat time."

However, please note that Stocker's lack of experience is a subjective judgement by the mentally disabled Kirk. Quite possibly, Stocker is fully qualified to command the Enterprise, quite regardless of her senile former skipper calling him "a chair-bound paper-pusher." That Stocker hasn't commanded a starship before need not mean squat, as starships elsewhere in TOS are a specific type of space combat vessel rather than a generic catchall term for them; in these terms, Stocker may be a veteran star cruiser commander, or at least a star destroyer CO.

Hmmm. I take never holding a "field command" to mean an operational command, like a ship of any size, as opposed to staff duty.

I think I'm gonna have to go with #3 as I stated above. AFAIK, Stocker was the only senior officer on board well enough to assume command. If there were any junior officers who could have, I doubt they'd have had much more experience at situations like this than Stocker did. And, also AFAIK, after the whole thing was over Kirk didn't even blame Stocker for doing what he did. It was your classic situation that you can't even describe without using the word "cluster".

Well, the naval way would be for command to descend downward through the ship's qualified line officers as far as necessary, so the most junior line ensign would take over before an unqualified flag officer. Starfleet in TOS apparently has officers "of the line," but it may not mean exactly the same thing as it does in the USN.


Justin

 

[Tribble Herder]

Well, if Sulu had assumed command, we wouldn't have gotten that scene with the Romulans attacking, so we wouldn't have had that dramatic scene of a newly rejuvenated Kirk flying out of the turbolift to save the day.

Yeah, a weak defense, but ultimately the correct one.

 

[Wingsley]

It could be that some flag officers are assigned to territories and others are assigned to fleets, or specific missions. (This might explain both Stone and Mendez being stationed on Starbase 11 at roughly the same time, and wearing different color uniforms.)

 

[Tom]

Going back to Picard in FC, was Ent-E also the flagship? We know the Ent-D was as it was mentioned in Generations (and the series as well) . If the the ENT-E was the flagship, then Picard would essentially be the Fleet Captain if there was not an Admiral around to to take command. They made specific mention 'the Admirals ship has been destroyed' sorta indicated there there was one admiral and now he/she was gone.

 

[Anticitizen]

Maybe it falls on seniority once the brass has been wiped out and Picard was the oldster.

 

[Knight Templar]

Once again, according to the Starfleet regulation mentioned in "Equinox", the captain of the ship with tactical superiority is in overall command during a multiship operation.

thus, the most powerful starship around, its captain will be in command.

Thus, in First Contact, because apparently the Enterprise was the only Sovereign class starship in the battle, Picard would be automatically in overall command unless an admiral was still around (and his ship had been destroyed).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Going back to Picard in FC, was Ent-E also the flagship? We know the Ent-D was as it was mentioned in Generations (and the series as well) . If the the ENT-E was the flagship, then Picard would essentially be the Fleet Captain if there was not an Admiral around to to take command. They made specific mention 'the Admirals ship has been destroyed' sorta indicated there there was one admiral and now he/she was gone.

Admiral Hayes was still alive (he turns up later on VOY). It was only his ship that was destroyed. I'm assuming two things, though:

- There was no way that Picard could know, or have time to check, that Hayes was in fact still alive

- Hayes must have been injured, or at least not have access to a starship (he was probably stuck in a lifeboat at the time). Otherwise Hayes could still have commanded the fleet no matter what ship he was on.

 

[J.T.B.]

Once again, according to the Starfleet regulation mentioned in "Equinox", the captain of the ship with tactical superiority is in overall command during a multiship operation.

thus, the most powerful starship around, its captain will be in command.

Yeah... that sounds pretty dodgy. Having the senior ranking officer take command has worked fine for hundreds of years, I can't think of any good reason why some "tactical superiority" thing would be preferable. There would have to be some kind of official scorecard for which ship was superior to what, and a can of worms would open if a higher ranking officer suddenly had to report to a junior because the latter's vessel was a bit higher on the power rankings.

IIRC the "Voyager" scene where the reg was quoted struck me as pretty absurd, I'd prefer to think that was some kind of post-TOS nonsense.

Justin

 

[Tom]

Once again, according to the Starfleet regulation mentioned in "Equinox", the captain of the ship with tactical superiority is in overall command during a multiship operation.

thus, the most powerful starship around, its captain will be in command.

Yeah... that sounds pretty dodgy. Having the senior ranking officer take command has worked fine for hundreds of years, I can't think of any good reason why some "tactical superiority" thing would be preferable. There would have to be some kind of official scorecard for which ship was superior to what, and a can of worms would open if a higher ranking officer suddenly had to report to a junior because the latter's vessel was a bit higher on the power rankings.

IIRC the "Voyager" scene where the reg was quoted struck me as pretty absurd, I'd prefer to think that was some kind of post-TOS nonsense.

Justin

So you have two captains and can not contact Starfleet who would have the most authority? Tenure may come into play, also possibly ship strength and the size of the crew that each one commands.

When all else fails just flip a coin..lol

Picard was, and possibly still is the captain of the flagship, that would give him fleet command in the absence of a higher ranking officer in a combat situation.

 

[Knight Templar]

Well, I think a pure seniority system would be ridiculous.

For example if you had the U.S.S. Sovereign commanded by a captain with 7 years at that rank operating with an Oberth class vessel (U.S.S. Deathtrap!) commanded by a captain with 8 years at that rank.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Well, I think a pure seniority system would be ridiculous.

For example if you had the U.S.S. Sovereign commanded by a captain with 7 years at that rank operating with an Oberth class vessel (U.S.S. Deathtrap!) commanded by a captain with 8 years at that rank.

Yeah but the captain of the death trap has not only got more experience then the Sovereign captain, but the fact that his ship hasn't blown up yet says he has got to be pretty good at being the captain.

 

[Timo]

Odds and ends:

Hmmm. I take never holding a "field command" to mean an operational command, like a ship of any size, as opposed to staff duty.

...But we can't really accept the statement about Stocker never holding a field command at face value, seeing how it is spoken by a person who damn near can't remember his own name.

(This might explain both Stone and Mendez being stationed on Starbase 11 at roughly the same time, and wearing different color uniforms.)

Was Mendez "stationed on SB 11"? For all we know, he was just temporarily residing there. His status vis-á-vis the base was never established; all we know is that he signed his last communique with "Mendez, SB 11" - but he would probably have signed it "Mendez, Malibu Beach" had that been his location when sending that communique, even if his position in the hierarchy was "Commanding officer, USS Insufferable, flotilla commander, Task Force K3".

according to the Starfleet regulation mentioned in "Equinox", the captain of the ship with tactical superiority is in overall command during a multiship operation.

But probably only with other things being equal. If the smaller ship is commanded by an officer who not only has seniority in rank, but actually holds markedly higher rank, then he or she in all likelihood gets to command the operation. That doesn't mean that his or her tiny Nova gets to do the most heroic stuff; it means that every captain operates his or her ship as best they can, but in accordance with the top officer's plan and goals.

In the end, though, the outcome of the battle depends mostly on what the strongest ship does. Warfare with expensive things like ships is like chess: you protect the major pieces even at high cost.

Picard was, and possibly still is the captain of the flagship

We never learned that the "Federation flagship" status of the E-D would have given her any privileges in maneuvers or the like. Picard's word wasn't automatically the more significant one when he met the O-6 captain of an Excelsior or even an Oberth. When commanding a fleet, in "Redemption", he wasn't said to enjoy command status due to the ship he was in - he simply was the brains behind the operation, and its appointed commander.

Picard being the CO of a big and bag ship apparently carries weight. But whether that ship is dubbed "UFP flagship" or not has never been indicated to be relevant. Would the CO of USS Constitution today get to order around the COs of USS Nimitz and USS Belleau Wood simply because his museum ship carries a funny honorary designation?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DavidGutierrez]

^ Great comments from J.T.B. and Tom above.

Back to the O.P. for a moment:

I realize there may be no exact real life analogue in today's militaries, but I was interested in the thoughts of any of our knowledegable military folks about how two command dilemmas that presented themselves in "The Doomsday Machine" would be handled in real life. To wit:

1. Commanding officer puts first officer in command while off the ship. Higher ranked officer, but not one actually posted to the ship, comes on board. Can higher ranked officer assume command, or does the ship's actual first officer have the right to stay in command based on being assigned to the ship and having been put in command by the ship's commander?

2. Ship's commanding officer is now actually in communication with the ship. Higher ranked officer still asserting that he is in command. Can the legitimate commander of the ship assert his authority to hand command back over to his first officer, or does the flag officer win that battle?

Just curious...

I do not know enough about military chains of command and protocol to answer the O.P. intelligently, but again, I want to thank the O.P. for starting this thread.

There is another distinctive issue tucked away in all of this that may have been overlooked. I do not know if it is applicable to any of today's modern armies or navies. Consider this:

Three of TOS' commodores, Stone, Mendez and Stocker, asserted authority in one way or another (the illusion of Mendez especially, through Starfleet Command's orders) of command over either Kirk or the Enterprise.

I have a theory about how this works, and it is not related to divisions or any other direct squadron organization. Here goes...

While it is possible that Starfleet flag officers (senior officers above the rank of captain) may command specific spacecraft or flotillas of same (task forces, fleets, etc.), I would like to suggest that command officers such as these could also command territories. Think of it this way. While it is possible that Stone was a "portmaster" in charge of Starbase 11's internal operations, he seemed to assert authority over Kirk even before the legal proceedings began. (Kirk did report to him to begin with.) Could it be that these flag officers are not just in charge of a given base or flotilla, but also the sector of space that the base is located in?

I've read one theory on these boards that Starbase 11 was so named not because it was the 11th such facility to be commissioned, but because the base is located in Sector 011. If this is the case, Stone and/or Mendez may command not just the base, but also all starship activity in Sector 011. The base may be where the office is located, but the sector may be the assignment. This would also correlate with Admiral Komack's subspace radio paging of the Enterprise heard on the bridge's loudspeakers in "Amok Time" when he identified his command as Sector 9.

If this were the case in "The Doomsday Machine", Commodore Decker could have been assigned to the sector where the L-37x systems were located. If Decker were the ranking flag officer for that sector (making it his territory), then any Federation ships entering that sector at least could be subject to his command. So, for sake of argument, let's call this territory Sector 292. If Decker's territory were Sector 292, and there is not yet a base in Sector 292, Decker was instead assigned a flagship to serve as his mobile command base: the Constellation. In light of the ongoing emergency in the L-374 system within Sector 292, Decker asserted his territorial authority as the sector flag officer to assume command of the Enterprise.

Does any of this make sense? I have no idea if there is a modern military analogue to this or not.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me. Bless you, this is also the idea I've hit on in my personal fanfic. It makes the most sense, especially when compared to modern military analogies and historical ones like (as someone already mentioned) the Royal Navy of the Napoleonic Wars. As each starship passes through each sector, the captain's direct report changes to whichever admiral has command of that sector.

 

[J.T.B.]

So you have two captains and can not contact Starfleet who would have the most authority? Tenure may come into play, also possibly ship strength and the size of the crew that each one commands.

They may both be captains but they are not equals. One will be senior by date of rank or something, there are no ties. Actually for that reason the US Army prefers to use the term "grade" for the title and "rank" to refer to who is senior, even within the same grade.

Well, I think a pure seniority system would be ridiculous.

For example if you had the U.S.S. Sovereign commanded by a captain with 7 years at that rank operating with an Oberth class vessel (U.S.S. Deathtrap!) commanded by a captain with 8 years at that rank.

OTOH, what if you had Kirk on Enterprise who had been "out there" for many years suddenly have to take orders from a newly-promoted captain of an Excelsior? At any rate, it makes sense that less important commands would go to more junior captains and the more important and powerful ones to the more senior. Like I said, this kind of thing has worked for hundreds of years, and what we've seen in Trek isn't so dissimilar from historic naval practice that it wouldn't work there.

...But we can't really accept the statement about Stocker never holding a field command at face value, seeing how it is spoken by a person who damn near can't remember his own name.

But a statement of fact like that would surely be refuted by Spock if it wasn't true.

Would the CO of USS Constitution today get to order around the COs of USS Nimitz and USS Belleau Wood simply because his museum ship carries a funny honorary designation?

I quite agree with the point, but what honorary designation? Constitution flies the senior officer present afloat pennant because her CO (a commander) is the senior naval officer on the waters around Boston harbor, but if a commissioned naval vessel with a senior CO came along that pennant would be hauled down.

Justin

 

[Knight Templar]

Well, I think a pure seniority system would be ridiculous.

For example if you had the U.S.S. Sovereign commanded by a captain with 7 years at that rank operating with an Oberth class vessel (U.S.S. Deathtrap!) commanded by a captain with 8 years at that rank.

Yeah but the captain of the death trap has not only got more experience then the Sovereign captain, but the fact that his ship hasn't blown up yet says he has got to be pretty good at being the captain.

A year more of experience? And he probably didn't command the U.S.S. Deathtrap for 8 years. Maybe he was captain of a Constellation class vessel (another old clunker) and then transferred to the U.S.S. Deathtrap when his other vessel was scrapped.

 

[Knight Templar]

this kind of thing has worked for hundreds of years, and what we've seen in Trek isn't so dissimilar from historic naval practice that it wouldn't work there.

Except from what we've seen Starfleet doesn't have an "up and out" promotion system like current militaries have.

In the USN, you would never have a commander (like Riker) refusing his own command three times and being allowed to remain in the Navy in all probability.

 

[Timo]

But a statement of fact like that would surely be refuted by Spock if it wasn't true.

Under any other circumstances, probably. But in this case Spock just doesn't have the heart. He has already let pass e.g. Kirk's false insistence that "There's nothing wrong with my memory", in the competency hearing where it still counted. After the hearing, Kirk's ranting no longer counts, and rubbing the knife in the wound would be just plain mean.

From Spock's more rational viewpoint, Stocker has never commanded a starship, but may well have held slightly lesser commands - if not, the still level-headed Vulcan would have brought that up when Stocker started comparing himself to the rest of the officers aboard the ship, and such a statement would have been more believable than Kirk's panicky brain farts.

Indeed, given Kirk's significant distress, we may even doubt his insistence that he is 34 years old...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MacLeod]

That's beans compared to Picard's apparent ability to take over the entire fleet in the beginning of First Contact - as a lowly captain that was supposed to be patrolling the Neutral Zone at the time...

Well two factors might come into play.

The Enterprise might have been considered the Flagship vessel of the Fleet captained by the most senior Captain.

As well as the regulation which states something along the lines of "When two or more Captains are present the Captain of the vessel with the tactical advantage is assumes command"

Also in FC you could argue that he responded to a distress call, as in part of the communications we heard during the battle was a call to Starfleet for reinforcements. Which means we are losing and need help.