Cogenitor
- Thread starter borgboy
- Start date
I don't think he was just being naive in how he did things, but what he did. Even Phlox asked him why he was having so much trouble with three sexes and why he couldn't accept it. Phlox an alien with different customs thinks the cogenitor business seems pretty run of the mill. T'Pol, another alien, also isn't troubled or interested. Really, only Trip is. Even Archer's discussions with the captain are more about what they have in common and the work itself.
I kinda thought the whole premise of the episode was: acceptance. (Going back to the prime directive.) Trip couldn't accept what was happening, and although I thought his heart was in the right place, his head wasn't.
When all the characters think another is doing the wrong thing (Phlox, T'Pol, Archer), I think the point is: Trip did the wrong thing.
I kinda thought the whole premise of the episode was: acceptance. (Going back to the prime directive.) Trip couldn't accept what was happening, and although I thought his heart was in the right place, his head wasn't.
When all the characters think another is doing the wrong thing (Phlox, T'Pol, Archer), I think the point is: Trip did the wrong thing.
Trip was no more wrong for being in the "minority" than the abolitionists were.
Trip grew up at a time in human history when justice and equality are pretty much universal concepts. He's naive, so he fails to pick up on the red flags: the engineer saying 3 percent of the population being cogenitors was just the right balance (such a small number precludes equal opportunity because of the need to perpetuate the species); the cogenitor assuming he was there to see the officers; the cogenitor's initial reluctance to try reading, "it's not allowed"; the wife's mystified reaction to Trip asking to see the cogenitor to say hello.
Changing the hearts and minds of people who take their own status for granted and can't see the injustice to others takes time and perseverence. Trip gave Charles the desire for more, but he couldn't give it the tools to fight for it.
Trip's real mistake was not in getting involved. It was in not learning more so he would understand what Charles would be up against.
There was here on board an interesting discussion on Cogenitor just a few weeks before 
.
Leaving aside the question if Trip was right or not to get involved, and assuming for a moment it WAS right of him to try and change Vissarian's habits, I think he should have begun not with Cogenitor itself (herself? himself?) but with the couple who kept it/her/him - trying to understand THEIR behaviour and attitude and trying to convince THEM it was wrong to treat Cogenitor in such a way.
.Leaving aside the question if Trip was right or not to get involved, and assuming for a moment it WAS right of him to try and change Vissarian's habits, I think he should have begun not with Cogenitor itself (herself? himself?) but with the couple who kept it/her/him - trying to understand THEIR behaviour and attitude and trying to convince THEM it was wrong to treat Cogenitor in such a way.
^ There was. There was a few weeks before that, too. And before that. And before that. Even now, we've seen many before: Archer sucks, Trip is funny/awesome/cute, T'Pol has a nice body, vote for your favorite episode here, etc. When you're here a while, you see topics come back up. This is a good one, and as far as rehashed topics, one I don't mind seeing.
Archer seems to have picked them up. I think it's probably why he's disappointed/upset/mad at Trip. I'll say again: Trip's heart is in the right place, but his head isn't and all the characters saying, "WTF are you doing?" tells me as an audience member that Trip is dead wrong in this and some other instances.
He does -- sometimes -- make mistakes. All characters do.
Archer seems to have picked them up. I think it's probably why he's disappointed/upset/mad at Trip. I'll say again: Trip's heart is in the right place, but his head isn't and all the characters saying, "WTF are you doing?" tells me as an audience member that Trip is dead wrong in this and some other instances.
He does -- sometimes -- make mistakes. All characters do.
^Of course he does - I think even most people in this thread admitted Trip made a mistake in the way he went about things even if we don't all agree on whether he should have stuck his nose in the whole affair in the first place.
I wonder how he would have proceeded if the Cogenitor had, from her position of ignorance, mocked his clear misunderstanding of their culture. The principle of cognitive dissonance implies that the marginalized race would be the one who valued its separation most - and may have resisted change the most.
This actually can happen in real life, substantiated by psychological research.
Some people need to feel like victims; it allows them to rationalize self-service.
This actually can happen in real life, substantiated by psychological research.
Some people need to feel like victims; it allows them to rationalize self-service.
I never got the impression that the cogenitor considered itself a victim. This was just the way things are on Vissia.
Then Trip came along with a different perspective....
^ agreed.
Really? I didn't read that. I think that's also mixed opinion.
I watched most of this episode last night. Trip's mistake was going too far too fast. In a case such as this is would be more productive to plant a seed of doubt in the minds of the majority about how they treat the cogenitor. That race was more advanced so challenge them with "would superior, more enlightened beings really treat someone this way?"
Before last night I had misinterpreted the final scene. It was not really Archer admonishing and blaming trip for the death. It was the shock of the death combined with Archer's own guilt and Trip's understanding of how much Archer blamed himself over the death. Archer realizes that it all went wrong while he was off having fun with the other captain. He was not around to manage things the way a captain should. The final line spoken in the episode is the heart of this scene.
Trip: "Capt'n, it's not your fault."
Before last night I had misinterpreted the final scene. It was not really Archer admonishing and blaming trip for the death. It was the shock of the death combined with Archer's own guilt and Trip's understanding of how much Archer blamed himself over the death. Archer realizes that it all went wrong while he was off having fun with the other captain. He was not around to manage things the way a captain should. The final line spoken in the episode is the heart of this scene.
Trip: "Capt'n, it's not your fault."
Wasn't that cool? But if you didn't catch it, Archer comes off like a real wanker!
But Charles did ask Trip and Archer for asylum.
True. But Archer was interested in maintaining good relations with the Vissians in charge.
I disagree that it was an imposition of morals. Trip was hardly in a position to impose his personal sense of decency on Vissian society.
And the cogenitor must have had some sense of feeling denied or it wouldn't have been open to his encouragement to seek more. Charles asked Trip if he would be punished if his superiors learned what he was up to (when they were on Enterprise) and told him it would be subject to punishment if the Vissians found out. And still Charles wanted to stay and tour the ship and learn from Trip.
I just wish Archer had actually had a discussion (albeit brief, we don't want to drag down the episode) with his officers on this whole issue of getting involved when something is going on that we consider wrong.
Essentially, do we leave our sense of right and wrong in low orbit or do we take it with us when we make the next giant leap?
Feel free to disagree! It was a wonderfully written episode that could be taken anyway you or I wanted to take it. And it made you think! (wrongly in your case! *just-kidding-grin*) (Warning: Remember how the Talosians treat wrong thinking! Now are you SURE what you're seeing right now is real?)
Remember that "imposition" doesn't necessarily mean "by force." While imposition may or not be too strong of a word, you may try "application." The long and short is that he meant well and made things worse. And the worst possible for 'Charles.'
There are other ways to take the episode as well!
The only reason Archer went along with it was because the Vissians had something Starfleet wanted.
