Cogenitor

[JiNX-01]

A couple of years ago we had parallel discussion threads -- "Did Trip Do the Right Thing?" and "Did Archer Do the Right Thing?" in "Cogenitor."

After seeing a discussion start up over in the Trip/T'Pol thread after Monday's airing of the episode on SciFi, and with new fans coming onboard, maybe it's worth another look.

Trip: I believed two years ago and I still believe that he was right to stand by his principles. However, he was also wrong in his handling of the situation: lying about his whereabouts; going behind the backs of the Vissians; not bothering to learn more about Vissian history/social structures so he'd have an idea what the cogenitor would be up against (just recalling American history re: slavery and the Jim Crow/civil rights eras might have helped, for heaven's sake); failing to recognize the red flags (when he asks to say hello to the cogenitor during dinner with the Vissian couple the wife wonders why he would want to. ).

Archer: The biggest flaw in this episode is that we never see Archer struggle with the question of asylum, which makes it so much harder to evaluate his decision.

Here the writers had an opportunity to examine the larger question: What role will humanity play in dealing with other species? Will we take our principles into space to guide us or will we seek to impose them on others? Will we be student or teacher?
After exploring these issues, even if Archer reaches a flawed conclusion either way, at least we could appreciate his thoughtful examination of the question.

Having said that, I think the cogenitor should have been granted asylum: Whether you agree with Trip's actions or not, the fact remains that Charles has been changed by its encounter with him, and is clearly never going to be able to reassimilate itself into the singular role the other Vissian sexes have imposed on it.

By condemning the cogenitor to that fate (Dred Scott anybody?) Archer practically ensured the tragic end that he (cruelly, IMO) blamed entirely on Trip.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think it's funny that Trip needed Phlox as his cogenitor to make that idiot spud in E squared. Of course that's implying that any Doctor using fertility science to augment the chances of conception requires praise... And a hug, a handshake, and a cigar seems appropriate.

In Alien Nation they made it into a religion. That seemed nice, and all the eroticism was removed from the third party's involvement.

No matter what the cogenitor did for the good and necessity of the their society, she was a slave, and in Bound we found that the UE does not believe in slavery, but that the UE(And later in Demons, Corridon too.) would work with and ally themselves with the Orion Syndicate despite their dependence on slavery. If they had worked along side each other to mine that planet of magic metal, Starfleet Engineers would have been working alongside slave gangs being forced to work under threat of the whip and hunger...

So the moral is, Nice people are allowed slaves for a good reason and bad people are not allowed slaves for bad reasons which is exactly the hypocrisy which powered Archers moral belch at Trip all because he had a mancrush on (Actually how are we sure they didn't get no gay loving going on? 2 days in a steel box the size of a coffin? That's taking 7 minutes in heaven to an all new degree of fanaticism. But if Archer had spent 2 days sucking and licking the Vissian Captain no wonder his Loyalties lay where they did since he was still writhing in the post orgasmic glow of...) G'Kar.

But T'Pol was right, keep your nose out of other peoples )(*& if you don't know what you're talking about, but maybe Soong was right, and Tuckers family did own slaves and he was trying to make amends with the demons in his own past?

Um, powerful episode. because of the death. but did we see the body? Did they SEE the body that was dead? Did the stupid monkey's on Enterprise fall for a cunning ruse so they'd fold up their opinions and move on? She could be alive y'know?

 

[angie]

I think Archer blamed himself as well as Trip for what happened. Trip didn't respect T'pol's position or advice and acted without thought to the consequences. Was it right to risk the ship and crew? No. Would the Cogenitor's race be welcomed into the Federation in the future? No.Archer didn't always agree with T'pol's view but understood that sometimes there wasn't a choice whether to let others follow their ways or interfere.

 

[bluedana]

Trip's heart was in the right place, but he went about his mission of mercy in a way that doomed it to failure. I agree with his intentions. In the end, though, if you assume that current asylum principles have been translated to 22nd century policy, I believe Archer made the right decision.

 

[commodore64]

Mr. Commodore64 during this episode kept shouting at the television (and that never happens), "Stop it, Trip! Don't do it!" I think that pretty much is how I felt - I could see the train wreck coming.

Enterprise, in my opinion, did a great job of showing how Jonathan Archer's viewpoints changed. We see his world view changing and broadening and this episode underscores which side he's on. I think in this episode the actors tried to show us that Archer realizes he hasn't always been on the side of non-interference and that's part of what pains him about Trip's actions. It bothers Archer, imo, that Trip made this decision, but it bothers him more to think that Trip may've made this decision because of his own personal actions before Cogenitor.

I also agree with Archer's stance. Not every culture is like our own, and as T'Pol said to Trip in Broken Bow, "humans must look beyond their provincial attitudes."

Archer's agreement with this Vulcan philosophy is also why I saw a change in his relationship with T'Pol. When he made this decision (as he did in other episodes like Dear Doctor, etc.), he saw T'Pol as an equal and value in the Vulcan philosophy. I think it took Trip until season 4 to realize that in his discussions with Soval during the Vulcan arc.

 

[3D Master]

bluedana said:
In the end, though, if you assume that current asylum principles have been translated to 22nd century policy, I believe Archer made the right decision.

Huh?

If that is true, current asylum principles are screwed up to all hell if not outright evil.

 

[DarthPipes]

Enterprise wasn't big on showing Archer struggle with his decisions. Dear Doctor is an excellent example. After the scene where Archer and Phlox disagree, we cut to a new scene where Archer now agrees with Phlox, saying that he was agonizing about it all night. It was telling, not showing on the show's part. Of course, they didn't mind showing us Archer agnozing over his Federation speech in the last episode.

The Cogenitor issue was a tough one. The Vissians needed the Cogenitor's in order to procreate and they weren't abusing them. But they were clearly second-class citizens viewed mostly like props. Archer wanted to make this first contact a successful one but I wish he had decided to grant the Cogenitor asylum. Wouldn't have knocked him if he did.

 

[JiNX-01]

DarthPipes said:
Enterprise wasn't big on showing Archer struggle with his decisions. Dear Doctor is an excellent example. After the scene where Archer and Phlox disagree, we cut to a new scene where Archer now agrees with Phlox, saying that he was agonizing about it all night. It was telling, not showing on the show's part. Of course, they didn't mind showing us Archer agnozing over his Federation speech in the last episode.

The Cogenitor issue was a tough one. The Vissians needed the Cogenitor's in order to procreate and they weren't abusing them. But they were clearly second-class citizens viewed mostly like props. Archer wanted to make this first contact a successful one but I wish he had decided to grant the Cogenitor asylum. Wouldn't have knocked him if he did.

Acknowledging that Archer is pretty pissed off at Trip in this episode, I believe a scene with Trip and T'Pol literally taking on the roles McCoy and Spock played for Kirk when he faced a quandary would have been a great nod to TOS as well as give us something meaty to chew on (no matter what Archer's decision was). They could have made room for it by dumping the "cheese" scene -- and I mean that literally as well as figuratively.

BTW, Recommended reading: The TrekNation analysis of this episode -- go the episode guide, click the review link and scroll down).

 

[DarthPipes]

It always annoyed me that there was no follow-up to this episode whatsoever. Another problem with Enterprise.

 

[JiNX-01]

DarthPipes said:
It always annoyed me that there was no follow-up to this episode whatsoever. Another problem with Enterprise.

That always bothered me, too... I've said before that I think the rift between Archer and Trip should have been more obvious in the episodes that followed: Trip eating in the mess hall instead of at the captain's table; they only talk when it's ship's business; any mention of the other elicits a pained/sad expression; scuttlebutt whispered among the crew that Tucker might be demoted, or that Archer has arranged for a Vulcan ship to return Trip to Earth); T'Pol tries to get them to talk it out and when they finally do, Trip loses it and rips Archer a new one for being a hypocrite (Yay!). So that doesn't work out.

Then in "The Expanse," Archer goes to Trip in the middle of the night to tell him that a area of Florida where his sister lives has been hit by an attack from space. He doesn't know any more but he's asked Forrest to get someone to check it out. And Hoshi is tracking down his parents.

The friendship is healed by this new tragedy.

 

[dolim]

i agree fully w/ archer in the cogenitor. if trip wanted to interfere, the should have gotten permission from archer first. he would've been able to advise him better on the situation. this is obviously the reason the prime directive is so important in TOS. as far as dear doctor goes, i have mixed feelings. being a medical doctor myself, i was shocked to see that an entire race was denied treatment that already existed. this is what sets the 2 episodes apart

 

[Pensive]

JiNX-01 said:
That always bothered me, too... I've said before that I think the rift between Archer and Trip should have been more obvious in the episodes that followed: Trip eating in the mess hall instead of at the captain's table; they only talk when it's ship's business; any mention of the other elicits a pained/sad expression; scuttlebutt whispered among the crew that Tucker might be demoted, or that Archer has arranged for a Vulcan ship to return Trip to Earth); T'Pol tries to get them to talk it out and when they finally do, Trip loses it and rips Archer a new one for being a hypocrite (Yay!). So that doesn't work out.

Then in "The Expanse," Archer goes to Trip in the middle of the night to tell him that a area of Florida where his sister lives has been hit by an attack from space. He doesn't know any more but he's asked Forrest to get someone to check it out. And Hoshi is tracking down his parents.

The friendship is healed by this new tragedy.

FOR THE WIN!

 

[commodore64]

Then in "The Expanse," Archer goes to Trip in the middle of the night to tell him that a area of Florida where his sister lives has been hit by an attack from space. He doesn't know any more but he's asked Forrest to get someone to check it out. And Hoshi is tracking down his parents. The friendship is healed by this new tragedy.

Perhaps this is how you wished things would've happened. (I'm really asking; I'm unsure based on the post.)

I think what happened in season 3 was a pretty clear indication that Archer's friendship with pretty much everyone wavered. I mean, I think from Archer's vantage point, he had friends (Trip among them) that he held dear. However, he was distancing them to do his job. I think in the future, TATV, we see their friendship repaired, but I don't think that really happened 100% in the rest of the two seasons. (That doesn't mean they were estranged, just not 100% with each other.) If they had managed to be 100%, I think they would've shown a Desert Crossing-like episode.

 

[STIntergalactic]

I would've granted asylum.

 

[JiNX-01]

commodore64 said:

Then in "The Expanse," Archer goes to Trip in the middle of the night to tell him that a area of Florida where his sister lives has been hit by an attack from space. He doesn't know any more but he's asked Forrest to get someone to check it out. And Hoshi is tracking down his parents. The friendship is healed by this new tragedy.

Perhaps this is how you wished things would've happened. (I'm really asking; I'm unsure based on the post.)

I think what happened in season 3 was a pretty clear indication that Archer's friendship with pretty much everyone wavered. I mean, I think from Archer's vantage point, he had friends (Trip among them) that he held dear. However, he was distancing them to do his job. I think in the future, TATV, we see their friendship repaired, but I don't think that really happened 100% in the rest of the two seasons. (That doesn't mean they were estranged, just not 100% with each other.) If they had managed to be 100%, I think they would've shown a Desert Crossing-like episode.

I can see Archer doing that to stay tough and focused for the mission. My objection is that while I don't expect the lighthearted banter between him and Trip in S3, I want to see him as the confidant and friend who can still knock o the ready room door during times when everyone else is steering clear (e.g.: Vox Sola).

They do have that drink together near the end of The Expanse, and Trip still backs the captain up completely -- even in Damage, he never questions the captain's decision to steal the warp core. But why on Earth is it TRAVIS who talks to the captain about not taking the suicide mission in Azati Prime? Where the hell is Trip?

 

[commodore64]

JiNX-01 said:
They do have that drink together near the end of The Expanse, and Trip still backs the captain up completely -- even in Damage, he never questions the captain's decision to steal the warp core.

Oooh good conversation. Archer has actually talked to T'Pol about a lot of things after in season 2 ... instead of Trip. It's why he upheld her opinion in Cogenitor. I think they did that purposefully for many reasons, but mostly because that shows Archer changing his world view. She's his new confidant.

From the Expanse episode to Damage, I never got the impression they talked, especially as deeply as they once did. And in several episodes, Bakula says as much. In fact, when Archer leaned Trip had hurt his head in Rajiin, he seemed pretty nonplussed.

It worked that he tried to isolate himself to deal with the hell around him.

But why on Earth is it TRAVIS who talks to the captain about not taking the suicide mission in Azati Prime? Where the hell is Trip?

Where was anyone he turned to?! That was my biggest beef about the "oh, poor Trip - he's deprived from sleep." I mean, Archer was dealing with a weight that was larger and more burdensome and it seemed no one cared. It's hell to have your sister die, but imagine a whole world of your species is near extinction!

My thinking is T'Pol, his confidant, and then Trip should've dealt with him. And frankly, I think it's a failing of the writing and Trip's character (through the writing) that didn't happen. During Home I didn't feel sorry for Trip, I felt sorry for Archer. He had a night of sex, but still had to live with making decisions on behalf of humanity. In a microcosm, only affecting Trip, he lost a sister.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You people are tripping to think there was any lasting effect to Trip and Archer's argument in Congentitor which carried over into any further future episodes. Hells bells they didn't even use any of the antics in the most recent episodes to act as the foundations of the vitriol between these too.

 

[Hoshi's sis]

JiNX-01 said:

commodore64 said:

Then in "The Expanse," Archer goes to Trip in the middle of the night to tell him that a area of Florida where his sister lives has been hit by an attack from space. He doesn't know any more but he's asked Forrest to get someone to check it out. And Hoshi is tracking down his parents. The friendship is healed by this new tragedy.

Perhaps this is how you wished things would've happened. (I'm really asking; I'm unsure based on the post.)

I think what happened in season 3 was a pretty clear indication that Archer's friendship with pretty much everyone wavered. I mean, I think from Archer's vantage point, he had friends (Trip among them) that he held dear. However, he was distancing them to do his job. I think in the future, TATV, we see their friendship repaired, but I don't think that really happened 100% in the rest of the two seasons. (That doesn't mean they were estranged, just not 100% with each other.) If they had managed to be 100%, I think they would've shown a Desert Crossing-like episode.

I can see Archer doing that to stay tough and focused for the mission. My objection is that while I don't expect the lighthearted banter between him and Trip in S3, I want to see him as the confidant and friend who can still knock o the ready room door during times when everyone else is steering clear (e.g.: Vox Sola).

They do have that drink together near the end of The Expanse, and Trip still backs the captain up completely -- even in Damage, he never questions the captain's decision to steal the warp core. But why on Earth is it TRAVIS who talks to the captain about not taking the suicide mission in Azati Prime? Where the hell is Trip?

I don't really think Archer was prepared to accept anyone as his confident during S3 Xindi mission or accept advice. He took on the stance of 'this is mine, and mine alone' mission in carrying it out. His closest confidents, Trip and T'Pol, had problems of their own to deal with. Even if they didn't, I don't think he would have let any of them in or accept advice.

It seemed a bit over the top in my opinion, but they seemed to do this a lot in regards to the character of Archer.

After the Cogenitor, Scott and Connor did play it as being distant to one another in Regeneration, but I think the writers wanted to get everything back on track during First Flight onwards. We don't know how much time had passed since the 'Regeneration' incident and First Flight, so there could have been plenty of time to heal the rift. It certainly looked as if it was back on track during Bounty (maybe a rift healing excursion for both of them) and in the Expanse during their talk together. Similitude certainly showed us the death of feeling Archer has for Trip and Observer Effect. Vica versa for Trip when he sees ARcher is still alive in Shockwave. They may have been few and far between, but IMO, they were enough to show the two were still strong confidents and very close friends. :thumbsup:

 

[commodore64]

Guy Gardener said:
You people are tripping to think there was any lasting effect to Trip and Archer's argument in Congentitor which carried over into any further future episodes. Hells bells they didn't even use any of the antics in the most recent episodes to act as the foundations of the vitriol between these too.

Bakula said that Archer and Trip had suffered because of Cogenitor in the Star Trek magazine. As the actor of one of the characters who's in that relationship, I'd assume he has a decent grasp of the situation. And it's not something he said as a one-off. He repeated his comments in subsequent interviews. I encourage you to look it up.

 

[Anna Yolei]

^
Too bad no one told the writing staff that.I look back on season three, and there's...nothing. Archer's withdrawn from everyone, including Trip.

If there was a strain in the relationship, it could have been conveyed a lot better than it was.