"Cogenitor" discussion

[Guy Gardener]

We have been presupposing a United Vissia?

%3 is if the entire species?

There's still a question of geographical distribution.

If there's a cold war, and some countries have %1 Congenitor, and another country has 6 percent congenitor, its clear that one side is at a disadvantage to the other, dependent on the size of each country.

 

[DonIago]

It's easy to claim the Vissians were terrible people for "keeping the Cogenitors down".

How much better do we think humans would fare if 3% of the population was female?

 

[Prax]

Then it'd be the males committing suicide, thousands per day

 

[Charles Phipps]

Exactly. That doesn't indicate some mental problems?

How do you figure? It certainly justifies killing your owner but suicide versus slavery seems a equally valid choice.

It could be gleamed that these cogenitors are incredibly selfish. Suicide is a morbidly selfish act. The are only 3% of the population... it quite possibly could be too much of a risk to "educate" them.

I feel like not allowing yourself to be made a slave is a justified act. Certainly if the Cognentors killed themselves to prevent themselves from being enslaved and guaranteed the extinction of their enslavers is justified.

Slavery is worth killing over. To avoid being enslaved is worth dying over.

It's easy to claim the Vissians were terrible people for "keeping the Cogenitors down".

How much better do we think humans would fare if 3% of the population was female?

If you're asking would I favor a society that required the slavery of women to survive then no, that society should go extinct.

How is this a hard decision? Slavery=evil.

 

[DonIago]

So you would sentence the entire Vissian civilization to death because you don't personally like the way their civilization currently exists?

 

[Prax]

A slave has the right to murder their owner? What?!

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

You really need to get over yourself.

There is no indication whatsoever that our cogenitor has issues with any pronoun.

You inject crap where there is none.

I'm sure it made you feel important.

Yanks, courtesy is a wonderful thing. I strongly suggest you put more effort into using it with your fellow members, and cut out the trollishness. If you have a burning need to be rude to members you disagree with, or to argue over pronoun usage, take it to TNZ.

The exchanges are getting a little rocky in here. Please take a breath and remember that
1) this was a TV show
2) this episode was produced in 2003 when pronouns were easier to navigate
3) this episode is a classic Trek "impossible choice" dilemma and there will be different opinions about it, and trying to outshout or browbeat someone tends to shut down discussion rather than encourage a fruitful exchange of views and ideas.

Thanks. Please carry on.

 

[Guy Gardener]

A slave has the right to murder their owner? What?!

Pretty much.

It's the law that tells us not to kill. (Personal morality aside.)

It's the law that determines if you are a slave or not.

If it's the law that tells you to both shut up and accept your enslavement, as well as, don't kill the people enslaving you, then the law can suck it.

Obviously, if you kill your master, there are stern consequences, the entire present legal apparatus will be forced to remove you from the equation as an example to any one else who is thinking about killing their master too.

If slaves are not docile, and broken, then it's stupid to have them close when you are vulnerable or sleeping.

Remember this...

"If a Narn kills a Centauri, then 200 Narns will be executed as an example, including members of the perpetrators own family."

So a slave has the right, or maybe the obligation to kill their Master, if they think they can get away with it, or if they can accept the disproportionate consequences of their actions.

 

[Yanks]

Yanks, courtesy is a wonderful thing. I strongly suggest you put more effort into using it with your fellow members, and cut out the trollishness. If you have a burning need to be rude to members you disagree with, or to argue over pronoun usage, take it to TNZ.

You are the one that trolled, not me. Go back and look at the posts. I asked about "they" and "them" and then the moderators/admins ask me if I have a problem with that.

The exchanges are getting a little rocky in here. Please take a breath and remember that
1) this was a TV show

Wow, thanks. I wasn't aware of that.

2) this episode was produced in 2003 when pronouns were easier to navigate

I don't know what this means.

3) this episode is a classic Trek "impossible choice" dilemma and there will be different opinions about it, and trying to outshout or browbeat someone tends to shut down discussion rather than encourage a fruitful exchange of views and ideas.

Please practice what you preach. I haven't "brow beat" anyone. I have received the holy gospel from you though.

Funny how there are no issues aside from dealing with the moderators/admins.

"outshout"? ... "browbeat"? ... wow.

I'd like to go back to trying to figure out Guy Gardener's posts please. At least that is enjoyable.

 

[Prax]

I'd like to go back to trying to figure out Guy Gardener's posts please. At least that is enjoyable.

Only Guy Gardener understands Guy Gardener's posts. My theory is they're a strange blend of extreme sarcasm and jovial dark humor, but I'm not optimistic that this appraisal is correct.

Also, FWIW, if I am ever pulled over by a policeman, even if it was unjustified, or even if I feel like they're being rude to me, I will always be as amicable and respectful towards them as I can, even when I feel like they don't deserve it. Things just end up going better for me that way.

 

[T'Bonz]

Warning given to Yanks for persisting after the mod told him to stop. Stop means stop, not berate the moderator.

As for this "Funny how there are no issues aside from dealing with the moderators/admins" well that would say to me that the problem most likely stems from you. The mods are here to keep things from turning into WWIII. I don't tolerate overbearing mods so that's not the problem. So it must be that you're angered that you can't say what you please. As my granny used to say "tough tacos."

If you can't get along with the mods, and keep doing this kind of thing, I'll yank you right off the board.

It ends here. If you find the need to bitch at me about this, do it via PM and not here in this thread. I do expect that to be followed, in case you're feeling a bit passive-aggressive.

 

[Merlyn Emerald]

Nobody will like my opinion, but I always believed that Trip did very wrong, getting into a foreign culture with his opinion. In my country there is a saying, "Don’t go to a foreign monastery with your charter." On the territory of their planet, the Vissians have the right to do whatever they see fit. Trip climbed like an elephant, without thinking, and in the end everything turned into a drama.
A cogenitor is not a slave. This creature containing the enzyme for reproduction, so ordered the Vissian nature...

 

[Dryson]

The Cogenitor was neither male nor female due to the Cogenitor not supplying any DNA during the pregnancy like a human surrogate would. The Cogenitor was a surrogate for the Vissian male and female. In order to give birth, the Cogenitor was most likely female. Otherwise the birth would be through a C-section. Unless the Cogenitor had a Baby Cargo Door on its stomach that was opened and the baby removed after the doctor scanned her and said "Open Sesame," three times. What is even more interesting is how the interaction between the Cogenitors enzyme allowed the nervous system of the Cogenitor to control the growth of the fetus without passing on any DNA of its own to the fetus.

 

[Dryson]

Nobody will like my opinion, but I always believed that Trip did very wrong, getting into a foreign culture with his opinion. In my country there is a saying, "Don’t go to a foreign monastery with your charter." On the territory of their planet, the Vissians have the right to do whatever they see fit. Trip climbed like an elephant, without thinking, and in the end everything turned into a drama.
A cogenitor is not a slave. This creature containing the enzyme for reproduction, so ordered the Vissian nature...

You call the Cogenitor a 'simple creature' yet the Cogenitor is able to learn and desires to be more than it is. A simple creature doesn't have such abilities.

The Vissians have the right to do as they seem fit, but no one has the right to deny a sentient lifeform, which the Cogenitor is, the fundamental right to explore. Exploring is the fundamental thought process behind every life in the Universe.

 

[DonIago]

And if the Vissian people became extinct because the Cogenitors were no longer willing to play their part in the reproductive process?

The situation sucks, and one would hope the Vissians would find a better solution, but Trip's approach was terrible.

 

[Tribble Threat]

If Cogenitors have rights, that's not the end of the species at all. That just means the Cogenitors are free to live their lives and choose who to reproduce with, and who to share their enzyme with.

 

[Guy Gardener]

An enzyme, enough of it, macroscopically would look like some kind of goop?

They used to be primates (maybe) with no culture or language and continued to make babies by accident without any cohered effort.

The vissians naturally gravitated towards threesomes (upwards to full village orgies?) where the three sexes participated before the vissian cavemen could tell the difference between a woman and a congenitor, unless once naked, the difference is glaringly obvious, since how do you throw goop into a cavewoman's vagina with a different cavewoman's vagina?

1. Congenitors have a launcher genital that throws goop into women. You remember He-Man and Skeltor (toys in the 80s) had a sword each which were actually two halves of the same sword, that snapped together, and could be used as a key to open the gates to Castle Grey Skull? Maybe the congenitor genital and the penis interlock into a unified super penis before it intrudes into a vagina, and then it's like the dessert cart at Pizza hut, that lets you crank several sauces allover your ice cream at the same time.

2. Congenitors have a receptacle where like an old timey quill and inkwell, the penis reaches into the conginitors receptacle, draws up the goop into itself like a momma bird getting ready to feed her chicks, and takes the congenitor goop to a near by insemenatable vagina. That would mean that a vissian penis has two settings: Suck and Blow. Way too complex, cavemen would not be able to figure it out and they would have died off millions of years ago.

3. It's all in the sweat. A little heavy petty, and every one is fertile.

4. It's a sneaky lie. Overpopulation. No one needs a congenitor, but their government is lying to them, and they are falling for it.

5. It's a political decision underpinned by Eugenics, so that they can deal with serious over population issues. Therefore cavepeople never had to have had to figure out three sexes sex to perpetuate the species. It's new. This option would also suggest that congenitors are made, and they are not some random effect generated by the population. It also means that if the Vissians drop their population to a preagreed upon number, that they can dispense with congenitors, and go back to trusting idiots to breed responsibly.

 

[Tribble Threat]

I have no interest in speculating about reproductive organs of fictional aliens. I'm only interested in discussing their rights, and things that are in the episode.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I have no interest in speculating about reproductive organs of fictional aliens. I'm only interested in discussing their rights, and things that are in the episode.

You're named after fictional aliens who are born pregnant (and stay pregnant?), so they probably do not have genitals.

Happy coincidence?

 

[DonIago]

If Cogenitors have rights, that's not the end of the species at all. That just means the Cogenitors are free to live their lives and choose who to reproduce with, and who to share their enzyme with.

Did you miss the part of the episode where there were far fewer Cogenitors than there were other Vissians? As I said, it's a terrible situation, but it may be that if the Cogenitors were given the rights that they ideally should have than the other Vissians would be looking at, at best, a massive decrease in population. Not to mention the almost-certain civil unrest that would accompany such a change. For instance, Cogenitors would likely become treasured commodities and sold on the black market.