Cloning for Colonization?

[Henoch]

A distant genetic ancestor where physical appearances randomly crops up from time to time. They do have a slight resemblance in the face, but the ears are definitely different. I'm surprised that Kirk did not make the connection when he first meets Sarek, then discovers him to be Spock's daddy. I bet Kirk and McCoy had some jollies at Spock's expense.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Majel Barrett supposedly came up with her own theories on Number One ("The Cage") when she was preparing for that role, since the Writers' Bible did not elaborate. In her interpretation, the lack of a personal name suggested a colony that used some form of scientific intervention. Many of her ideas were incorporated into DC Fontana's Trek novel, "Vulcan's Glory".

That Number One and Christine Chapel ended up resembling each other is a convenient coincidence!

Can you imagine Spock's surprise when he discovered the Romulan Commander looked just like his OWN FATHER?!

It's funny that the original Mego 8" Romulan action figure was so rare that most people owning one never removed it from the card, but when EMCE/Diamond released their retro-Mego figures we could finally remove the gold helmet to reveal... a face sculpt of Mark Lenard! (Some collectors are only just noticing now that Mego Target figures are a thing.)

A distant genetic ancestor where physical appearances randomly crops up from time to time.

I had a weird experience at Castle Duart, the Maclean Clan ancestral home, in Scotland. A wall of McLeans and Macleans on a picture wall, with descendants from all over the world - and none resembled me or my family back in Australia. I was so disappointed.

And then behind me, I noticed a large oil painting looming: a portrait of the Reverend Jacob Marsham, Canon of Windsor (1759 - 1840), and father of the wife of Sir Charles Fitzroy Maclean, 9th Baronet.

Rev Marsham looks exactly like my Dad.

 

[Henoch]

Majel Barrett supposedly came up with her own theories on Number One ("The Cage") when she was preparing for that role, since the Writers' Bible did not elaborate. In her interpretation, the lack of a personal name suggested a colony that used some form of scientific intervention.

I assume "scientific intervention" means genetic engineering, but not cloning. This is very interesting since one can assume she discussed these ideas with Gene and Dorothy. This was about a year before writing Space Seed with the eugenics war stuff. Later in DS9, we get Dr. Bashir who is a genetically engineered "augment" as a main character. I wonder if these ideas somehow transitioned to both of these other stories. If Star Trek "Cage" continued, we may see stories where Number One's augmentations would be shown as positive traits, such as with TOS Spock's higher alien intellect, strength and biology , or maybe stories where some of the crew treat her with bigotry , also like Spock in some TOS stories. The "Cage" Spock would develop into a smiling and curious character similar to ...aaaaaa....a Sulu/Chekov variant?

That Number One and Christine Chapel ended up resembling each other is a convenient coincidence!

With my new set of lying eyes, I don't see any resemblance, one has dark brown hair and the another platinum hair. Obviously, nothing alike.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Bruce Hyde once mentioned that on "The Conscience of the King," he was cast as a new character (unrelated to Kevin Riley in "The Naked Time"). Hyde told them about his prior role, which they weren't going to remember without his help, and the part was changed to Kevin Riley at Hyde's suggestion.

He did the right thing. It seems to illustrate how passive John Winston (Mr. Kyle) was on the set of "The Immunity Syndrome" when his character was called "Mr. Cowl" for no reason imaginable. Once Shatner had learned his lines a certain way, I'll bet Winston was afraid of crossing him, so Winston kept silent on the continuity problem.

According to Memory Alpha, the crew on the set of "Shore Leave" remembered that Barbara Baldavin had played Angela in "Balance of Terror," and her character was changed from Mary to Angela for that reason. So it wasn't her idea. And maybe she didn't want to rock the boat when she got cast as "Lisa" in "The Turnabout Intruder."

Apparently, there are times when actors in small guest roles are afraid to speak up in case it costs them the job. And it isn't just the little people returning for another one-shot. Walter Koenig has admitted that all during his work on The Wrath of Khan, he was fully aware that Chekov was not in "Space Seed." But he was afraid to mention it for fear they'd correct the error by cutting his big role down to nothing.

 

[Therin of Andor]

It seems to illustrate how passive John Winston (Mr. Kyle) was on the set of "The Immunity Syndrome" when his character was called "Mr. Cowl" for no reason imaginable.

The extras and two-line day-players were very used to their characters having no name, or changed names. It sounded to me like a "Mr Carl" might have been scripted so, and suddenly John Winston was cast. Or, yes, perhaps Shatner simply mispronounced "Kyle". Winston was often just "Transporter Chief"; it's only in retrospect that we apply Kyle to each Winston appearance.

According to Memory Alpha, the crew on the set of "Shore Leave" remembered that Barbara Baldavin had played Angela in "Balance of Terror," and her character was changed from Mary to Angela for that reason. So it wasn't her idea.

Yes, it was! I recall a "Starlog" interview. Her husband was actually the Casting Director, Joe D'Agosta.

The Teller name only remained because Shatner had already used that name in footage already filmed.

And maybe she didn't want to rock the boat when she got cast as "Lisa" in "The Turnabout Intruder."

To me, since it's only the Phony Kirk who ever calls her Lisa, maybe Janice Lester proved she doesn't know her crew very well?

Apparently, there are times when actors in small guest roles are afraid to speak up in case it costs them the job.

Any no-line extra who suddenly gets more than two lines in an episode is no longer paid at the rate of a no-line extra. And a cheaper extra may get assigned next episode.

Walter Koenig has admitted that all during his work on The Wrath of Khan, he was fully aware that Chekov was not in "Space Seed." But he was afraid to mention it for fear they'd correct the error by cutting his big role down to nothing.

He was afraid that the writers might suddenly switch his role with Takei's, and resolve the dilemma - although, of course, George wasn't in "Space Seed" either.

 

[johnnybear]

Yes but he didn't see him the way we did! He saw Balok as looking like his Father rather than the Romulan Commander! Maybe it's a fault with that inner eyelid he has or something spiritual instead?
JB

 

[Henoch]

Yes but he didn't see him the way we did! He saw Balok as looking like his Father rather than the Romulan Commander! Maybe it's a fault with that inner eyelid he has or something spiritual instead?
JB

Spock said that Balok (only the verbal content of the voice at that point) reminded him of his father. I assume he changed his mind after he saw Balok (the puppet), and certainly after he was briefed on Balok (the creepy kid). It was 18 years since Spock saw his father, so maybe he forgot what he looked like. The different ear structure and the uniform certainly threw him off - "Vulcan clothes make-ith the man."

 

[johnnybear]

Nope, Spock said that Balok reminded him of his Father and Scotty said he had sympathy for his Mother! Plus I and others feel that maybe the original look of the Vulcans may have been similar to the appearance of Balok here as Spock was a half breed and may have looked more human than other Vulcans in the early days of the series?
JB

 

[uniderth]

Spock said that Balok (only the verbal content of the voice at that point) reminded him of his father. I assume he changed his mind after he saw Balok (the puppet), and certainly after he was briefed on Balok (the creepy kid). It was 18 years since Spock saw his father, so maybe he forgot what he looked like. The different ear structure and the uniform certainly threw him off - "Vulcan clothes make-ith the man."

Nope, Spock said that Balok reminded him of his Father and Scotty said he had sympathy for his Mother! Plus I and others feel that maybe the original look of the Vulcans may have been similar to the appearance of Balok here as Spock was a half breed and may have looked more human than other Vulcans in the early days of the series?
JB

Relevant Quote:

SPOCK: However, it was well played. I regret not having learned more about this Balok. In some manner he was reminiscent of my father.
SCOTT: Then may heaven have helped your mother.
SPOCK: Quite the contrary. She considered herself a very fortunate Earth woman.

I'm also going with the demeanor of Balok being what reminded Spock of his father. It is probably true that the original envisioned look of pure blood Vulcanians was more akin to the Balok Puppet. However, even with that being the case, the line Spock gives doesn't come off as referring to visual appearance.

 

[Qonundrum]

I'm surprised that the topic of cloning never came up on TOS (was it even a technology during the 1960's?) and only one episode on TNG. Android duplication and Genetic engineering seemed to get the attention in many episodes and in all cases, it was scripted as "bad". Just an observation.

Why might it be scripted as "bad"? Some episodes could have gone into greater depth. But some of their perhaps depth-less conclusions might have been deemed "rhetorical" at the time. If it's true that messing up the environment is bad, then by extension isn't genetic engineering? Is it that simple that a 50 minute TV show can put out all possible nuances and depth so succinctly? (No, but they were probably wanting viewers to think outside the box and in many possible directions, not just one?)

 

[Henoch]

Why might it be scripted as "bad"? Some episodes could have gone into greater depth. But some of their perhaps depth-less conclusions might have been deemed "rhetorical" at the time. If it's true that messing up the environment is bad, then by extension isn't genetic engineering? Is it that simple that a 50 minute TV show can put out all possible nuances and depth so succinctly? (No, but they were probably wanting viewers to think outside the box and in many possible directions, not just one?)

Good points.

(Slogan, "Star Trek: thought-provoking for over 50 years.")

 

[johnnybear]

Well it was SO good back then wasn't it!!!
JB

 

[The Old Mixer]

We see many colonies and even whole planets populated with billions of humans.

Do we? Were such numbers ever given for human colonies on the show? I recall that the population of Deneva was around one million.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Do we? Were such numbers ever given for human colonies on the show? I recall that the population of Deneva was around one million.

So Deneva was like one eighth of New York City.

 

[Henoch]

Do we? Were such numbers ever given for human colonies on the show? I recall that the population of Deneva was around one million.

This may take a lot of Episode research to use as a sampling to arrive at a statical estimate of the human population off Earth.
I guess other issues are whether a planet is a human colony, or one of those pre-existing human populated worlds they find, or not even a human world. For example; in Doomsday Machine, Rigel has "millions of lives". Vague on numbers (2 to 999 million) and on what kind of lives (human or alien). Assumptions will need to be made. This can turn into a research paper. <sigh> Thanks a lot, Mixer.

 

[johnnybear]

I wonder if spreading humanity to the far corners of the galaxy and later the universe is a good idea?
JB

 

[Timo]

Populations in the billions per planet may simply be a thing of the past in Star Trek: a planet can only take so much, and Earth's nine billion in ST:FC is already an abomination and only possible through Borgification.

Spreading "trillions" of people (as per DS9) across "thousands" of planets per species (as per "Metamorphosis") is what we hear about, and might be the sustainable thing, and give us places that never grow past a couple of million. Depending a bit on how we treat the "thousands" bit.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Old Mixer]

So Deneva was like one eighth of New York City.

And as I recall, it was played up as a large, successful example of a colony (prior to being infected by parasitic plastic space vomit).

 

[Henoch]

Populations in the billions per planet may simply be a thing of the past in Star Trek: a planet can only take so much, and Earth's nine billion in ST:FC is already an abomination and only possible through Borgification.

Spreading "trillions" of people (as per DS9) across "thousands" of planets per species (as per "Metamorphosis") is what we hear about, and might be the sustainable thing, and give us places that never grow past a couple of million. Depending a bit on how we treat the "thousands" bit.

Timo Saloniemi

I'll take Timo's qualitative analysis and skip the quantitative research paper for now. Thanks, Timo.

 

[Henoch]

And as I recall, it was played up as a large, successful example of a colony (prior to being infected by parasitic plastic space vomit).

I may disagree. Here's some transcription (with my bolding on key dialog):

Captain's log stardate 3287.2. The mass insanity we have tracked across this section of the galaxy seems to have already touched Deneva. That planet, colonised over a century ago, is one of the most beautiful in the galaxy.
SPOCK: Planet development is normal, Captain. Originally colonised as a freighting-line base in this area.
SCOTT: Aye, they make regular trips from here carrying supplies to the asteroid belt for the miners and bringing cargo out. I've made the run a couple of times myself as an engineering advisor.
SPOCK: No Federation contacts for over a year.​

Kirk's log make's Deneva seem like the exception, not the norm of colonies. Deneva is considered beautiful because it was remote and not overpopulated. It feels more on the "small" side. Being visited only once a year by the Federation doesn't scream "large, successful".

Not to overlook your original argument, could Deneva represent the majority of colonies? Colony natural development: Find resources about a century ago; Use nearest M-class planet as base; Set up industrial operations; Export resources and Import supplies with commercial freighters; people emigrate and get born over century, colony self governs and grows to 1M people. (Can freight/mining grow to 1M people with only immigration and natural births?) Peaceful region of space, so, Federation only needs to visit occasionally. Back to the research paper. <sigh> Thanks again, Mixer.