Clone Wars, S1

[Set Harth]

And Lucas didn't kill off Jar-Jar so he didn't even take care of that problem.

I never expected him to kill off Jar Jar. I may have said so, in jest, but in reality I knew it wasn't going to happen. He did minimize his screen time, especially in ROTS, and that had been a big part of a lot of the Jar Jar criticism -- the immense amount of screen time he ate up in TPM.

Oh cmon, he's definitely on the board of directors for the Empire.

I get the impression he puts up with Tarkin because the Emperor wants it that way, but we see Tarkin giving him orders in ANH. But don't get me wrong, I know he's a ruthless bastard. He may have ordered the Imperial bombardment of Haruun Kal as punishment for Nick Rostu's failure in Jedi Twilight.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Even if you delete Jar-Jar, you still have the problem of expecting a child actor to contribute anything useful to the complicated and very adult story of Anakin's fall to the dark side; and the fact that the story really had no point and contributed nothing to Anakin's overall arc.

Other than introducing the major characters, I can't figure out why TPM even needed to exist. I would have started the story with Anakin as a teenager - after I'd located an actor who could bring something worthwhile to the role, otherwise, I'd start the story with him even older - and jumped immediately into the Clone Wars. The second movie could take place in the midst of the Clone Wars, and #3 is about the fall to the dark side.

There's a lot of work that needed to be done to set up Anakin as a hero and yet believably push him off the cliff, so why dick around? Get right into it, six hours will go by before you know it.

I get the impression he puts up with Tarkin because the Emperor wants it that way.

I got the impression that if Tarkin didn't build the Death Star, Vader would have been more than happy to do it himself, or to build something worse. He didn't object to the Death Star because it was a symbol of inhuman tyranny and was capable of mass murder; he objected to it as being "weak" at such things in comparison with the Force. Presumably the Force could blow up Alderaan if used by a sufficiently powerful Sith who just thought about it real hard.

He may have ordered the Imperial bombardment of Haruun Kal as punishment for Nick Rostu's failure in Jedi Twilight.

I have no idea what you're referring to, but I'm sure Vader would blow up a hundred planets if he felt like it.

 

[Set Harth]

and the fact that the story really had no point and contributed nothing to Anakin's overall arc.

On the contrary, it was crucial to Anakin's overall arc; it explained how he was inducted into the order while setting up his loss/separation issues and his conflict with the Jedi leadership.

Presumably the Force could blow up Alderaan if used by a sufficiently powerful Sith who just thought about it real hard.

Not any kind of Sith that we're ever likely to see in canon -- or else Yoda could blow up the Death Star just by thinking about it real hard. Vader's assertion is borne out in a different manner, when Luke destroys the thing by using the Force.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

His loss/separation issues were a bad idea - they make him too pathetic and it's too psychological for Star Wars, which should be more mythological and metaphysical. His mother should have been long since dead when Obi-Wan discovered him on Tatooine, living with his step-dad and step-brother, not in particularly bad circumstances (certainly not being treated as a slave), more like the situation with Luke, just not in the place he's meant to be.

I know there should be some psychology behind a fall to the dark side, but to set up Anakin as a damaged person is a bad idea because it takes away from his free will in choosing the dark side and undermines it as a moral decision. If he became a Sith because of his disadvantaged childhood, then how is it really his fault? Also, it undermines the idea that any Jedi is equally at risk from the dark side - even if they had happy childhoods. The dark side should getcha because of failings anyone could have, such as power lust, impatience and arrogance, and should be an equal-opportunity danger.

His conflict with the Jedi leadership isn't something that's tenable when the character is a child. That's more an opinion that would develop in teen years and young adulthood. Anakin could chafe at the idea of having to adapt to rules of any sort, and then when he's older, he can start having specific ideas that the Jedi rules are baloney (particularly when he hits puberty ) and then a little later, when he's mature enough for actual political ideas, he can start to believe that democracy is baloney, too, because he doesn't like having any limitations or restraints. But none of this can believably happen when he's a child, so the work of the story cannot be accomplished with Anakin as a child.

Vader's assertion is borne out in a different manner, when Luke destroys the thing by using the Force.

I know that's what the line foreshadowed but since Vader couldn't know that would happen, he must have meant that anything the Death Star can do, the Force can do better - one way or the other. And it certainly didn't imply that Vader wouldn't blow up planets himself if he saw the need for it.

 

[Turtletrekker]

but that's a long ways from being a psycho who blows up whole planets.

Or fails to object when Tarkin blows up whole planets, at any rate.

Or fails to object when Tarkin blows up whole planets, at any rate.

Oh cmon, he's definitely on the board of directors for the Empire. Whatever shit they get up to, he's implicated. He would have enough power to have started undermining the Empire years before, if he was really so opposed to their style of governance. There's a weird tendency I've noticed among some fans to try to mitigate Vader's role in the Empire as though he were some sort of helpless victim rather than the second in command for the whole shebang.

Oh cmon, he's definitely on the board of directors for the Empire.

Set Harth wrote:
I get the impression he puts up with Tarkin because the Emperor wants it that way, but we see Tarkin giving him orders in ANH. But don't get me wrong, I know he's a ruthless bastard. He may have ordered the Imperial bombardment of Haruun Kal as punishment for Nick Rostu's failure in Jedi Twilight.

Here is a bit from the NPR Star Wars radio adaptation (which I can not possibly recommend highly enough) that I've always liked. It's an expansion of the scene where Tarkin decides to destroy Alderaan...

Tarkin: The Emperor expects great things of me. And this battlestation.

Vader. :Without the information that Leia Organa is protecting your best efforts will be a waste of time. But I will demolish her defences, rest assured.

Tarkin: I always found your methods rather needlessly elborate, Vader.

Vader: They are effective. However, I am open to suggestions.

Tarkin: That is wise. Stubbnorness such as the Princess Leia's can often be circumvented by applying threats to a third party.

Vader: Meaning?

Tarkin: That I think that it is time that we demonstrated the full power of the Death Star. I have in mind a way to do so that will be doubly useful. Admiral Motti!

Motti: Yes sir!

Tarkin: Tell your programmer to set a course for the Alderaan system.

Motti: With pleasure, Lord Tarkin!

Tarkin: You see, Vader? The third parties, whom we will threaten, are the entire population of her home planet.

Vader: Alderaan is one of the foremost of the inner systems. The Emperor should be consulted.

Tarkin: Do not think to challenge me! You're not confronting Tagge or Motti now! The Emperor has placed me in charge of this affair with a free hand, and the decision in mine!

Keep in mind that there was also a larger sub-plot with Tarkin and Motti planning on using the Death Star to challange Palpatine's rule. Tarkin wasn't really acting in Palpatine's best interests and Vader's presense there was, at least in part, to make sure that the Emperor's interests were being served. Tarkin made his own decisions. Not that that excuses Vader for just standing by and doing nothing, but I feel Vader would have had more respect for the resouses and, yes, even the lives, on Alderaan had he been in command.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I can't envision that conversation actually taking place - Vader sounds too damn meek and even reasonable. I prefer the guy who shakes his fists and chokes people who annoy him.

But none of that has any bearing on my central point, which is that Vader is a bad guy, not a poor naive but essentially blameless fool who is somehow spent twenty years working for the Evil Galactic Empire while unaware that it is not a charitable organization dedicated to helping orphans and puppies.

The problem still remains that Anakin of Clone Wars is a good guy who would never just stand by and let Tarkin blow up a planet, or work for an organization where building machines that blow up planets is something you'd expect to happen sooner or later. He wouldn't allow Leia to be tortured, much less orchestrate it himself. He'd recognize that the Rebellion is being caused by the horrendous oppression inflicted by the Empire and do everything he can to destroy the Empire.

So how does he get from Point A to Point B or rather from Point A to Point Way-Beyond-Z? Clone Wars has five years to pull off that character evolution. So far in S1, they've set up Anakin as an appealing hero, which is what the first part of his story always should have done. But considering the massive gulf they have to leap, I'm hoping that S2 shows some forward movement.

It's possible that there's some evolution that still needs to occur in the post-ROTS years - maybe Vader wasn't initially the same guy when he first ended up in the tin can that he became 20 years later - I'm game for extending the series beyond that point if needed. But the problem with that is that a fall to the dark side shouldn't be an evolution. It should have foreshadowing and a build-up to the fall, but when it happens, it should happen at all once and be total. I can't see the dark side pussyfooting around.

 

[Silvercrest]

maybe Vader wasn't initially the same guy

Hey-- maybe he isn't the same guy! He could get killed and replaced at some point by a "Shinzon." They don't call it "Clone Wars" for nothing, you know.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Obi-Wan and Anakin actually switched places. And then they both got amnesia. Yoda became really nearsighted. That explains so much.

 

[Mr Light]

I definitely think that Vader's character changed to some extent over the course of twenty years steeped in the dark side

I think we'll see SOME descent over the series, but remember at the start of ROTS Anakin was a good guy and a hero who occasionally committed horrendous acts when no-one else was looking. It was his desperation to save Padme's life that caused him to slip, and then once the corruption of the dark side seeped into his brain it was quickly downhill from there. The dark side is a like a drug that you allow yourself to become addicted to. He was taking it on the side and keeping it hidden but over the course of ROTS he became a complete junkie

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I definitely think that Vader's character changed to some extent over the course of twenty years steeped in the dark side

That's likely, but since it's never been dramatized on screen, it doesn't count as part of the story - certainly can't count as part of ROTS, which needs to tell the whole story since there's never going to be any filling in of the blanks between ROTS and ANH. If ROTS needed to continue years after Anakin's fall to get the whole story done, then they should have done that. If the story wasn't done, why did they stop?

Or, if the story needed to stop with Vader in the metal suit, the script needed to get all the way to the end of the story by that point, which could have easily happened if the full run of the three movies had been put to more effective use. There was a whole lot of unnecessary crap and padding. I don't care which they do, just do one or the other and finish the story!

The dark side is a like a drug that you allow yourself to become addicted to. He was taking it on the side and keeping it hidden but over the course of ROTS he became a complete junkie

Interesting idea, but ROTS didn't at all convey the notion that that was actually what happened. Either the writing or the acting was at fault, or Lucas never intended for us to believe that the dark side is anything like drug addiction.

What would have helped a lot to sell this idea: show some highly morally upstanding Jedi - maybe Obi-Wan, maybe someone else - being lured by the dark side, not because they're at all interested in it, or have a personality that predisposes them, but simply because their guard is down and they never seriously thought the dark side could ever bother them. Just take a look at the kinds of things that predispose people to drug addiction in real life - "it can't happen to me," inability to manage stress, hanging around with other drug users, etc - and use that as inspiration.

But the dark side can't be completely like drug addiction, because that removes too much moral culpability. It can't be a product of a bad childhood or bad personality because all Jedi should be threatened by it, regardless of how fortunate or otherwise they've been in life. It can't be a rational decision, because well, it's not very rational - is it?

So it's gotta be partly addiction, partly personal predilections, partly just bad luck. That would take very deft writing and acting to convey since it's a very complicated mix in a storyline where nobody is expecting complications, but rather a nice, direct, streamlined, simple story of good vs. evil. Lucas definitely doesn't handle complication well. He just gets all tangled up and creates a boring mess. What we need is the rare kind of writer who can take complication and make it all seem very straightforward and simple.

 

[Set Harth]

I know there should be some psychology behind a fall to the dark side, but to set up Anakin as a damaged person is a bad idea because it takes away from his free will in choosing the dark side and undermines it as a moral decision. If he became a Sith because of his disadvantaged childhood, then how is it really his fault?

So "damaged people" with "disadvantaged childhoods" have no accountability, and the very existence of free will is predicated on perfect outcomes. Interesting.

But none of this can believably happen when he's a child, so the work of the story cannot be accomplished with Anakin as a child.

Again we see "cannot". Could we call this an appeal to incredulity? But it was in fact possible and did happen: the seeds of the conflict were sown at that point. There is no imaginary rule which invalidates these events due to Anakin's age being lower than some arbitrary standard, since he's old enough to remember.

or Lucas never intended for us to believe that the dark side is anything like drug addiction.

It's possible he thought he got that point across with the OT.

he must have meant that anything the Death Star can do, the Force can do better - one way or the other.

Then why does the Emperor need the Death Star to blow up planets?

 

[Silvercrest]

or Lucas never intended for us to believe that the dark side is anything like drug addiction.

It's possible he thought he got that point across with the OT.

Not if he expects people to watch the movies in numerical order. If the PT is supposed to come first, it should explain these things.

 

[Saquist]

This is the thread for discussing Season One of Clone Wars. (Please code spoilers for subsequent seasons in this thread.)

Originally I watched just the first episode and got a negative impression that it was a) just a lot of fighting and b) I hated the animation style. But I gave it another shot and my attitude has done a 180 or at least a 175. Which I suspected would happen if I just accepted the parts I don't like - cartoon villains, dopey battle droids as enemy cannon fodder, and the essentially interchangeable clones, not to mention the moral issue that is being glossed over by their presence in the story. I just have to stop wanting CW to be the Star Trek TV series that I’m increasingly desperate to see.

First off, I appreciate the newsreel-style recaps at the beginning of each episode. They're a nice reminder that Star Wars hails from the tradition of old late-20s and 30s space opera serials, and even though the text crawl is famous, it would be a clumsy way of conveying the same information. The fortune-cookie aphorisms at the beginning of each episode are pretty silly, though.

The “blue shadow virus” storyline near the end of S1 is a good example of what I’ve been wanting to see from Star Wars. The premise that the heroes have to rescue their friends, trapped and dying from a virus unleashed by a mad scientists, which takes the heroes to a forbidden planet where they battle giant ferocious fanged Venus fly traps to secure the cure is just about as Flash Gordon-y of a story as you could hope for! Star Wars has returned to its B-movie space opera roots, and I love it!

The Ryloth stories and "Hostage Crisis" at the end of the season have allayed any fears I might have that there would be a lack of complexity in either the characters or the political makeup of the Republic. There is a maturity and depth to these stories that I associate more with DS9 than with Star Wars, and all the crazy, colorful and humorous characters are on full display.

A couple episodes into the season, I was thinking, "yeah I can live with this, even if it's really just for kids." But as the season went along, I started to see the larger picture accumulating - that there's more depth and sophistication to this series than you would expect in a show that's "for kids." By the last six or so episodes of the season, Clone Wars really started to click as a very worthwhile addition to the Star Wars saga that had value entirely beyond the moving-plastic-at-Toys-R-Us level I'd figured the franchise had stalled out at.

I really appreciate the attention to detail, whether its a mini-AT-AT Walker being used to gallop across the plains, a Twi'lek doll with a couple of cute little "tails" on its head, or a bounty hunter with the good sense to attach some doohickeys to his neck to keep himself from being Force-choked when going into battle with Jedi. This series is being made by people who actually think about what they're showing on the screen - HOORAY!

For a little emotional and psychological depth, we have a (believable at long last!) forbidden romance at the core of the story. Just one brief glimpse of Anakin and Padme surreptitiously holding hands is more romantic than the sand-loads of bad dialogue and anti-chemistry the PT inflicted on us. Romance doesn’t seem to be the priority of this show, but they’re not doing it half bad, and shouldn’t be shy about developing this part of the story.

The other thread that might lead interesting places is Obi-Wan and Anakin’s differing views of how a Jedi should behave. Rather than lecture Anakin about being able to adopt an attitude of compassion towards all but attachment to none, Obi-Wan just admits to being able to “hide it better.” Is the Jedi way so inhuman that the only way to pull it off is by living an emotionally fraudulent life?

I love the way they write, voice-act and animate Anakin - if I'm not mistaken, his look is based on an adult Jake Lloyd, who being less of a pretty-boy type than Hayden Christensen, is far closer to my idea of how the guy who becomes Vader should look - more masculine, a bit brutish (it's the forehead) and with intense, striking eyes. I’ve always had trouble envisioning the actors playing Anakin ever being the guy in the big, black suit but several times, the animators have used lighting and expression to depict Anakin in a strikingly scary way, that does match the guy in the suit. Then the scene changes and we’re back to nice-guy Anakin.

The character is likable and heroic, which is how Anakin should have started out. Sure, he's overconfident and breaks rules, and occasionally behaves a bit more violently than the other Jedi, but that's a long long ways from blowing up planets. He cares greatly about Padme and Ashoka of course, but also about the lives of Clone Troopers and Artoo, while Vader just sees everyone as disposable in his quest for ever greater power - how the heck does that transition occur?

Anakin is a huge improvement over the film strategy of making him a surly, stalker-ish brat from the outset, but leaves open the problem of how is Filoni going to realistically start to move him to the Dark Side, which needs to start to happen a couple of seasons before the series end for plausibility's sake. I’ve been told that ‘something’ emerges along these lines in S2, so I’ll sit tight and wait. (Code those spoilers please.)

Considering the barren desert sci fi on TV has become, it is a welcome surprise to discover a space opera series that can really deliver both entertainment and as much depth as you can hope for from a show that is expected to appeal to viewers from 8 to 88 years old. I'm eagerly awaiting the release of S2 later this month and I have many more things to discuss about S1, but I guess I should pace myself, so I'll cut it off here. Thanks, TrekBBS, for not letting me give up on this series after one episode!

Bottom line: For the first time since the end of ROTJ (I don't even want to think how long ago that was), I'm fairly excited about Star Wars again. I have some issues with the series, but it's good and it's space opera and given how little of that is around nowadays, I'll just shut up and be happy.

I swear to God , this show is like......therapeutic puking. If you just want to gorge your self on crap then Lucas has something for you. I was astonished that he replaced the brilliance of the Clone Wars shorts with this Play-School style substitute.

This show is so FLUFFY I could die.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Wait ... your dismissing the CW series as fluffy by comparing it to ... the CW shorts?

I mean, fluffy compared to Saving Private Ryan, I get. But fluffy compared to Sh'a Gi?

 

[Brikar99]

That episode where they blow all those people out into space one pod at a time... fluffiest thing I've EVER seen. God, I almost went into a goddamn diabetic coma it was so sugary. I'm not even gonna mention how glowy and bright it was when that dude got run through the back with a lightsaber when he wasn't looking.

 

[Saquist]

Wait ... your dismissing the CW series as fluffy by comparing it to ... the CW shorts?

I mean, fluffy compared to Saving Private Ryan, I get. But fluffy compared to Sh'a Gi?

Yeah that series of episodes exceeded expectation for Star Wars. Frankly Im surprised Lucas is allowing Force Unleashed to be awesome.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Yeah that series of episodes exceeded expectation for Star Wars. Frankly Im surprised Lucas is allowing Force Unleashed to be awesome.

I really like the shorts but I don't think that they offer the same depth and breadth of storytelling as the CGI series. So if, you wanna argue the quality of the shorts vs. the CGI series, have at it. I'll disagree, and ask you to explain exactly how the shorts are "brilliant" compared to the CGI series. But to say the CGI series is too "fluffy" while claiming, at the same time, that the shorts are "brilliant" is a ridiculous argument to make.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I know there should be some psychology behind a fall to the dark side, but to set up Anakin as a damaged person is a bad idea because it takes away from his free will in choosing the dark side and undermines it as a moral decision. If he became a Sith because of his disadvantaged childhood, then how is it really his fault?

So "damaged people" with "disadvantaged childhoods" have no accountability, and the very existence of free will is predicated on perfect outcomes. Interesting.

That's what I don't want to see - the idea that Anakin fell because he had a bad childhood creeps me out. I dislike the way the PT puts the emphasis on psychology, by default I guess, because the moral and drug addiction/mind control explanations weren't used to any degree I could see.

If there was another explanation, I would have liked to have seen it dramatized. I do think the explanation should be a combo of a moral choice and some drug addiction/mind control, with as little psychology as possible, to avoid the problem of blaming a guy who just had bad luck, plus psychology doesn't really click well with the mythological/mystical identiy of Star Wars.

But none of this can believably happen when he's a child, so the work of the story cannot be accomplished with Anakin as a child.

Again we see "cannot". Could we call this an appeal to incredulity? But it was in fact possible and did happen: the seeds of the conflict were sown at that point. There is no imaginary rule which invalidates these events due to Anakin's age being lower than some arbitrary standard, since he's old enough to remember.

The "cannot" comes from the fact that a ten year old is not a moral actor. That's not arbitrary, that's the way human beings are. I didn't invent the way human beings develop a moral sense as they grow, or the fact that ten year olds don't have the same moral discernment as they do at 20, so there's no sense complaining to me about it. I'm just pointing it out as an obvious fact.

or Lucas never intended for us to believe that the dark side is anything like drug addiction.

It's possible he thought he got that point across with the OT.

If he thought that, he was wrong.

he must have meant that anything the Death Star can do, the Force can do better - one way or the other.

Then why does the Emperor need the Death Star to blow up planets?

Just lazy I guess. Well, then what did Vader mean?

 

[Dream]

So, when will you starting watching Season 2, Temis?

Get on it, woman!

 

[Temis the Vorta]

So, when will you starting watching Season 2, Temis?

Get on it, woman!

I just got the second disk! Maybe I should just start a running review thread...I have a coupla things to say about the first disk, basically, that the improvement I noticed at the end of S1 appears to be continuing nicely.