Cloaks and Torpedos
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The only way I could see something like that working is if you had a very small cloaked ship loaded to the gills with micro torpedoes. It would drop the cloak and start firing. Given the size of Torpedo bays and the size of cloaked ships you couldn't just load your average warp shuttle with torpedoes and a cloak and expect it to work.
I remember in FASA the Gorn had a torpedo that would envelop a ship with a shield before exploding, this cloaked mine field idea sounds like something FASA would cook up.
I remember in FASA the Gorn had a torpedo that would envelop a ship with a shield before exploding, this cloaked mine field idea sounds like something FASA would cook up.
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Hi all,
One question if I may. Would it be possible for Klingons to cloak their Torpedos? Any thoughts welcome
Thanx.
By DS9, possibly so. They were deploying cloaked mines that were compared to photon torpedoes in "The Sons of Mogh". And we see later on the Feds deploying self-replicating, cloaked mines that swarm in groups of 20-30 per target ship next to the wormhole in "Call to Arms".
It might well be a balancing act involving minimum size and maximum energy signature. We know that the mines can cloak, and they aren't very large - but a small cloak might suffice for hiding their minimal energy signature. We also know that interstellar missiles can cloak (or at least Starfleet believed Eddington when he said that the Maquis had launched such missiles rendered invisible with Klingon cloaks), a situation where sufficient size would allow the fitting of a more powerful cloak that hides the energies of the warp engine.
The energy consumption of the cloaking device is probably no obstacle, though. We have seen three starship cloaking devices of very compact size: in "The Enterprise Incident", "Profit and Loss", and "Emperor's New Cloak". In the latter episode, the cloaking generator could easily render itself invisible, without being plugged into anything. And in ST4, the power-starved Bird of Prey that couldn't even properly operate transporters was capable of maintaining invisibility indefinitely.
We don't know the size of Klingon torpedoes. We only know their torpedo tubes look rather big on the old K't'inga battle cruiser and her TOS/TAS predecessor, as well as on the TOS movie Bird of Prey. Perhaps the Klingons indeed use slightly larger torps, echoing the Cold War where Soviet ship-killer missiles were gigantic pilotless aircraft capable of sinking a carrier with a single (often nuclear) shot, while their NATO equivalents were smallish rocket-powered harpoons with inferior warheads and range but superior guidance. What we do know is that Klingons still don't bother to cloak their torps - not even when they specifically rig a ship that can remain invisible until the very moment of firing. If torps could be cloaked, surely they would have been so treated in ST6, preventing the enemy from seeing where the fire was coming from?
Timo Saloniemi
The energy consumption of the cloaking device is probably no obstacle, though. We have seen three starship cloaking devices of very compact size: in "The Enterprise Incident", "Profit and Loss", and "Emperor's New Cloak". In the latter episode, the cloaking generator could easily render itself invisible, without being plugged into anything. And in ST4, the power-starved Bird of Prey that couldn't even properly operate transporters was capable of maintaining invisibility indefinitely.
We don't know the size of Klingon torpedoes. We only know their torpedo tubes look rather big on the old K't'inga battle cruiser and her TOS/TAS predecessor, as well as on the TOS movie Bird of Prey. Perhaps the Klingons indeed use slightly larger torps, echoing the Cold War where Soviet ship-killer missiles were gigantic pilotless aircraft capable of sinking a carrier with a single (often nuclear) shot, while their NATO equivalents were smallish rocket-powered harpoons with inferior warheads and range but superior guidance. What we do know is that Klingons still don't bother to cloak their torps - not even when they specifically rig a ship that can remain invisible until the very moment of firing. If torps could be cloaked, surely they would have been so treated in ST6, preventing the enemy from seeing where the fire was coming from?
Timo Saloniemi
Hi all,
One question if I may. Would it be possible for Klingons to cloak their Torpedos? Any thoughts welcome
Thanx.
By DS9, possibly so. They were deploying cloaked mines that were compared to photon torpedoes in "The Sons of Mogh". And we see later on the Feds deploying self-replicating, cloaked mines that swarm in groups of 20-30 per target ship next to the wormhole in "Call to Arms".
Oh ya- with regenerating abilities or something... Made them too powerful for my liking...
Cloaked torpedoes sound too improbable unless they lauched it from something like a rail gun and didn't use any propellant in the torpedo. AND it only had to go in a straight line... Then they could no doubt mask it with sensor absorbing materials, thereby cloaking it for all intents and purposes.
Some intriguing points here. I concur with Timo on the technical aspects of enrgy vs anti-energy if you will. The cloaked mines would be easier in theory, but the energy being output vs input would be a exact science. As the mines would largely be on stand by, the emissions could be contained by a cloak. However when fired up, the energy emissions would surpase the cloak. I would guess that the cloak would operate on a passive frequency. However, the cloak would have served its purpose. Well I'm running with that on a technological twist.
I believe that was because of energy against mass. The Torpedo could not match field harmonics and as such, would have crashed against the cloak. I think something like that, I would not pretend to be an expert on that for sure.
The old D7 appeared to be a bombdardment warship to me. I thought that Torpedo sizes were pretty standard irrespective of race. The "K't'inga" in another Sci-Fi series, would have had Mass Drivers. Not trying to commit heracy here, but that D7 was just wrong.
Timo said:
I believe that was because of energy against mass. The Torpedo could not match field harmonics and as such, would have crashed against the cloak. I think something like that, I would not pretend to be an expert on that for sure.
The old D7 appeared to be a bombdardment warship to me. I thought that Torpedo sizes were pretty standard irrespective of race. The "K't'inga" in another Sci-Fi series, would have had Mass Drivers. Not trying to commit heracy here, but that D7 was just wrong.
Patrickivan said:
Maybe that could work. However, the magnetic coils would throw a cloak if not matched to a magnetic frequency. Railguns could use Chemical Propellant, but that would be orbital at best. I am making an assumption that a cloak would be effected by strong magnetic field?
Somehow, the cloak manages to hide the massive reality-twisting fields that drive starships at warp speeds, as well as the gravity-manipulating fields that enable them to maneuver and keep the skipper's coffee or bloodwine safely in the mug. Most of the time, the cloak also manages to hide the forcefields that protect the ships from enemy fire (although Romulans, and people using Romulan cloaks, are notorious for not taking chances, and tend to drop shields when cloaking).
I'd say hiding the fields associated with torpedo launchers would be a breeze, really.
Although it may be that it's more difficult to properly hide those fields because they are highly time-variable: unlike a warp field or an artificial gravity field, the torpedo acceleration fields are likely to come and go - they ramp up and down real fast.
Assuming that such fields even exist, that is. It may be that a torpedo launcher features no acceleration fields or other acceleration mechanisms whatsoever; after all, torpedoes don't leave the launchers at a particularly high speed. Rather, the torp itself may be responsible for all the acceleration, so that it leaves the tube at a relatively low speed but despite this eventually attains sufficient speed for catching an enemy vessel that flees at warp...
It may well be that the drive fields that allow torps to do that are difficult to conceal - indeed, the characteristic glow of a torpedo may be "waste radiation" from a high-strung warp field or impulse field, much more intense than the (nearly invisible) glow from a starship-sized field, and much more difficult to cloak. If so, then in order to be of any tactical help, a torpedo invisibility device would only operate for the first few seconds of flight (during which the torpedo would be limited to low, non-glowing speeds, but would still have time to leave the vicinity of the firing vessel) and would then shut down as the brightly glowing drive fields were activated (but this would happen sufficiently far from the firing cloakship that the enemy couldn't deduce the location of said ship even when spotting the brightening up of the torpedo).
Timo Saloniemi
I'd say hiding the fields associated with torpedo launchers would be a breeze, really.
Although it may be that it's more difficult to properly hide those fields because they are highly time-variable: unlike a warp field or an artificial gravity field, the torpedo acceleration fields are likely to come and go - they ramp up and down real fast.
Assuming that such fields even exist, that is. It may be that a torpedo launcher features no acceleration fields or other acceleration mechanisms whatsoever; after all, torpedoes don't leave the launchers at a particularly high speed. Rather, the torp itself may be responsible for all the acceleration, so that it leaves the tube at a relatively low speed but despite this eventually attains sufficient speed for catching an enemy vessel that flees at warp...
It may well be that the drive fields that allow torps to do that are difficult to conceal - indeed, the characteristic glow of a torpedo may be "waste radiation" from a high-strung warp field or impulse field, much more intense than the (nearly invisible) glow from a starship-sized field, and much more difficult to cloak. If so, then in order to be of any tactical help, a torpedo invisibility device would only operate for the first few seconds of flight (during which the torpedo would be limited to low, non-glowing speeds, but would still have time to leave the vicinity of the firing vessel) and would then shut down as the brightly glowing drive fields were activated (but this would happen sufficiently far from the firing cloakship that the enemy couldn't deduce the location of said ship even when spotting the brightening up of the torpedo).
Timo Saloniemi
Bloody hell that is a reply 
Ok so you could hide the field, but then would that not imply its opposite, slow speed against high would still clash. If a 50% variency is applied, then variable would be hit and miss. The Torpedo would have to have a constant speed no?
Ok so you could hide the field, but then would that not imply its opposite, slow speed against high would still clash. If a 50% variency is applied, then variable would be hit and miss. The Torpedo would have to have a constant speed no?
I'm trying to remember the DS9 episode where quark and rom were walking down the corridor with a stolen cloaking device that Rom had rigged to cloak itself so nobody could see what they were up to ("The Emperor's New Cloak" maybe?). So power requirement isn't really an issue, apparently you can run a cloaking device on batteries.
Quark did have a small cloaking device in another DS9 episode, though not the most reliable device in the world it worked for short bursts. If short bursts are all you need (what's the operating life of a torpedo? Ten, fifteen seconds?) then it should be child's play to cloak one, much like the self-replicating mines.
The real question is, why would you want to cloak a torpedo? Unless you're in NuTrek, Starfleet is blissfully ignorant of the concept of point defense and it doesn't really matter whether they can see the torpedo or not, they can't (or won't) try to shoot it down. Cloaking devices are probably wasted on torpedoes, the strategic advantage is better preserved by getting your ship to fire while cloaked.
Quark did have a small cloaking device in another DS9 episode, though not the most reliable device in the world it worked for short bursts. If short bursts are all you need (what's the operating life of a torpedo? Ten, fifteen seconds?) then it should be child's play to cloak one, much like the self-replicating mines.
The real question is, why would you want to cloak a torpedo? Unless you're in NuTrek, Starfleet is blissfully ignorant of the concept of point defense and it doesn't really matter whether they can see the torpedo or not, they can't (or won't) try to shoot it down. Cloaking devices are probably wasted on torpedoes, the strategic advantage is better preserved by getting your ship to fire while cloaked.
I suppose that the cloaks on mines could be termed passive as the mines are static weapons. I would imagine a Torpedo even with a cloak, would not be praticle due to the power needed for compensating for fluctuations.
One other question. Do any of the Races have Torpedos that use active ECM in the warheads. I know that Federation use guidence systems, but are they not still in essence shoot and hope?
One other question. Do any of the Races have Torpedos that use active ECM in the warheads. I know that Federation use guidence systems, but are they not still in essence shoot and hope?
In DS9's "Call to Arms", the mines moved to attack (swarm) their targets over short distances so they aren't static weapons.
Photon torpedoes as seen in TOS and afterwards (chronologically) appear to be able to maneuver upon leaving launcher and accelerating rapidly to target after making initial turn to the target.
One reason that they might not be able to be cloaked is that in "Sons of Mogh" they were said to leave a detectable ion trail. This is probably because a torpedo running fast and constant isn't designed for stealth maneuvering whereas a cloaked ship would operate at limited maneuverability to leave as little of a trail as possible.
Photon torpedoes as seen in TOS and afterwards (chronologically) appear to be able to maneuver upon leaving launcher and accelerating rapidly to target after making initial turn to the target.
One reason that they might not be able to be cloaked is that in "Sons of Mogh" they were said to leave a detectable ion trail. This is probably because a torpedo running fast and constant isn't designed for stealth maneuvering whereas a cloaked ship would operate at limited maneuverability to leave as little of a trail as possible.
Agree with both points there. That was I was thinking with the term passive. Technically, a mine as you all know, is a defensive weapon. therefore could be construed as being passive.
In DS9 - Call to Arms (great episode) the mines themselves, really became mortars. Mortars use self propellant and so did the aforementioned. Then again maybe they are a SPG.
I think it was first mentioned in TNG regarding guidence systems, I think.
In DS9 - Call to Arms (great episode) the mines themselves, really became mortars. Mortars use self propellant and so did the aforementioned. Then again maybe they are a SPG.
I think it was first mentioned in TNG regarding guidence systems, I think.
In order to hide where it is fired from.
Even Chang's cloakship revealed her position every time she fired, which would allow a fast, TNG-standard fire control system to lay blanketing fire and hurt the attacker a lot. If the torpedo left the ship under cloak, and only became visible after putting some distance between itself and the firing vessel, plus doing a dogleg, then the fire control system would have no idea where to aim.
And in Star Trek, certain mines are "gravitic".
We don't know if that refers to the warhead (the mine crushes the target with artificial gravity), the triggering system (the mine detonates when observing the gravity of a passing ship), or perhaps a kill-enhancing system (the mine pulls itself right next to the target with artificial gravity before detonating).
The first usage would be perfectly analogous with the real-world usage in "nuclear mine". The second usage would be perfectly analogous with the real-world usage in "magnetic mine" or "acoustic mine". The third usage would be somewhat analogous with another real-world usage of "magnetic mine", namely the magnetically grappling variant of the "sticky bomb" used as an antitank weapon between the world wars and in the early stages of the second one - and perfectly analogous with the Galaxy Quest usage.
Timo Saloniemi
One problem though Timo, you got to be an Engineer, the Gravitic aspect would not help other than giving the mine a vectoring plane. I see where you are going with this, but a mine using anti grav would broadcast its position. A ships sensors would see the the Gravity field distortions and impulse away with a few casultys.
Gravitic disturbances would work though, but I feel they would be inadequate. Primary power output would be constant, so they would detonate at that reading and be imprecise, imho.
Gravitic disturbances would work though, but I feel they would be inadequate. Primary power output would be constant, so they would detonate at that reading and be imprecise, imho.
