Cloaking technology borrowed from romulans

[shauncroucher]

The defiant has cloacking technology that they are only permitted to use in the Gamma Quadrant. They borrowed this from the Romulans in exchange for information about the Dominion.

I've been watching DS9 loads just lately, up to series 4 now, and it suddenly occured to me whilst watching "The Way of the Warrier" that the klingons also have cloacking technology too, and I wondered why the federation would enter into an agreement with the Romulans, when surely it would have been easier and safer to collaborate with the Klingons as they are allies to the Federation?

Anyone have any theories why they made this decision?

Thanks

Shaun

 

[Michael]

Good point, actually. I never noticed that before. Choosing the Romulans does offer more dramatic story opportunities, though. As for an in-universe reason, I guess they had to cooperate with the Romulans because of the Treaty of Algeron.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I would also assume that it was because of the Treaty of Algeron. If Starfleet starts to use Klingon cloaking devices on their ships the Romulans would probably accuse them of undermining and subverting the treaty. However, if Starfleet uses a cloaking device with the explicit aproval of Romulus, the Romulans feel much safer.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Romulan technology is superior to Klingon. Shop for quality.

 

[Jono]

I agree with the previously stated reason been it was probably due to the Treaty of Algeron. For the Defiant to have a cloaking device, no matter the provider, the Federation needs to admend the treaty and in the end the Romulans opt to offer the Federation a cloaking device they have designed. It would give them a tactical advantage as they would know the specifics of the design and its weaknesses limiting the threat of a Federation ship equipped with a cloak. It would be better to give the Feds a slightly older cloaking device then risking the Klingons handing the Federation their latest cloaking technology.

It also might be that Klingon cloaking devices cannot be integrated with Federation starships for some reason.

 

[Myasishchev]

^Whereas, as per Enterprise Incident, Romulan cloaking devices are completely ISO compatible.

I suppose the Rommies wouldn't want the Feds to build their own cloaks, either, since the Feds are generally shown to have much more substantial intellectual resources than any of the big empires, and would make a much better cloak than the Romulans could, given the incentive to build it. Iirc, the Treaty of Flowers for Algernon actually prohibited pure research as well as deployment, probably for that reason.

 

[Photon]

Feds (as Timo says) could easily find/replicate/build a cloak every bit as good or better that the Romulans.

I agree, if you're gonna borrow one, buy the Lexus instead of the Kia-so get the Romulan's cloak.

That said the Feds should have told the Romulans that they wanted to get a special waiver in this case, and use a Fed cloak and share the info or the treaty was done.

Perhaps the transphasic cloak had be perfected or at least its fallout technology.
Give LeForge and Chief the Pegasus cloak and they could figure out a doable configuration for any ship.
Too hell w/the Romulans, it wasn't them with their asses in a crack, like the Feds

 

[shauncroucher]

Yes, I can see where the treaty would make it dangerous for the Federation to borrow cloaking technology from the Klingons, and it makes sense they need the best quality cloaking device as they are fighting a formidable force.

Thanks

Shaun

 

[Red Ranger]

All plausible explanations, as it's always appeared the cloaking device was a Romulan invention. I guess the Klingons got access to the technology during the time they and the Romulans had a technology exchange -- the Romulans using Klingon designs for their ships for a time, as seen in The Enterprise Incident. Now, ENT kind of messed that up, I think -- don't recall if the 22nd century Klingons used cloaking technology, although I seem to recall they did.

If you want the best cloaking technology, you go to the orignators. I also liked how it briefly meant a Romulan officer working with the Federation. It's too bad T'Rul didn't stay on as a recurring character. Like a lot of Romulans, she was arrogant yet efficient. I wonder why they dropped that? After all, her stated purpose was to basically protect the secrets of the cloaking device.

I do have to agree with Admiral Pressman in The Pegasus, that signing the treaty put the Federation at a tactical disadvantage for too long -- esp. considering that, unlike the original Romulan Birds of Prey, the 24th century ones seem equal to Federation starships in terms of firepower.

 

[nx1701g]

I would also assume that it was because of the Treaty of Algeron. If Starfleet starts to use Klingon cloaking devices on their ships the Romulans would probably accuse them of undermining and subverting the treaty. However, if Starfleet uses a cloaking device with the explicit aproval of Romulus, the Romulans feel much safer.

I seem to recall a line in an episode (it was either The Search or Visionary) where they mention that the Defiant got the cloak as part of a special amendment to this treaty.

 

[BenRoethig]

It has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with treaty. The Klingons were not a party to the treaty of Algeron so they could only deal with the Romulans.

 

[DS9forever]

Kor mentioned in "Once More Unto the Breach" that his ship the Klothos was one of the first Klingon ships to have a cloaking device.

 

[Red Ranger]

Kor mentioned in "Once More Unto the Breach" that his ship the Klothos was one of the first Klingon ships to have a cloaking device.

I don't recall that line, thanks. Of course the Klingons had the cloaking device by at least the late 23rd century -- ST: TSFS, and Kruge's bird of prey, was the first time we saw Klingons using the cloak.

That happened, including calling the Klingon ship a bird of prey, because in the earliest draft for TSFS, the villains were supposed to be Romulans. So, they used some of the (till-then) terminology and tech usually associated with the Romulans.

It makes total sense, because in TOS ep The Enterprise Incident, the Romulans are using Klingon battlecrusisers, all equipped with cloaking devices. Therefore, part of that technology exchange must've included the Romulans sharing the cloak with the Klingons.

 

[Photon]

Kor mentioned in "Once More Unto the Breach" that his ship the Klothos was one of the first Klingon ships to have a cloaking device.

I don't recall that line, thanks. Of course the Klingons had the cloaking device by at least the late 23rd century -- ST: TSFS, and Kruge's bird of prey, was the first time we saw Klingons using the cloak.

That happened, including calling the Klingon ship a bird of prey, because in the earliest draft for TSFS, the villains were supposed to be Romulans. So, they used some of the (till-then) terminology and tech usually associated with the Romulans.

It makes total sense, because in TOS ep The Enterprise Incident, the Romulans are using Klingon battlecrusisers, all equipped with cloaking devices. Therefore, part of that technology exchange must've included the Romulans sharing the cloak with the Klingons.

totally agree. Big thanx to ST:ENT for totally screwing this up

 

[Timo]

Dunno... It has always seemed implausible for me that invisibility tech would be something our heroes would only first encounter in the mid-23rd century. Space in Star Trek (all of it, beginning with TOS) is the playground of advanced species, cultures and entities, and divine powers are more a norm than an exception. Surely any of Kirk's hundreds of predecessors in the deep space exploration business should have seen invisibility technology in use (or "not seen", if one insists)?

And surely any of the lesser species, such as Klingons or humans, would then strive to acquire this divine tech? Klingons were introduced to invisibility devices in 2151, as per ENT; fine with me. They'd see/not see the tech there, they'd start wanting it for themselves, and they'd spend a few decades trying to adapt what they had managed to grab. Romulans would have invented or stolen similar tech slightly earlier, and would have it in regular use as of 2152 already, again as per ENT. And humans would follow a bit later still, in turn stealing from the Romulans. It would be rather implausible for invisibility to remain the exclusive property of a single Trek species for any length of time... Unless that species were a divine superpower, which neither Klingons, Romulans nor humans are, not during the time depicted in Star Trek anyway.

OTOH, it also makes sense that the usual players would try and deny the advantage of invisibility from their enemies. Something like the Treaty of Algeron might work for a few decades, just like the London and Washington treaties briefly worked in limiting naval escalation between the World Wars, and like various strategic arms limitation deals worked in the 1970s-80s. Not forever, though...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

Of course, the naval limitation and strategic arms limitation treaties were mainly useful economically. The naval treaties did approach the issue from keeping the WW1 status quo in terms of proportions (with Japan kept down, although their economy couldn't have supported much more than that anyway), and couched in terms of world peace, but iirc the main intention was to prevent Britain, the U.S., and Japan from a potentially financially ruinous naval race. Afaik, the same concerns were the driving force behind SALT and similar measures--although the nuclear arms race isn't as irrational as a lot of people assume, since larger nuclear forces are both more survivable as well as more capable of a counterforce first strike.

The Versailles provisions were more clearly intended to keep Germany from rearming, and much more one-sided, and the "no dreadnoughts, no air force" constraints of Versailles are more analogous to the "no cloaked starships" cage Algeron bafflingly puts the Federation in. Also, there doesn't seem to be any compelling economic drain from equipping starships with cloaks.

Indeed, it's very hard to understand how the no-cloaks-for-you-ever-but-cloaks-even-on-our-shuttles provision of the Algeron Treaty would ever be accepted by a government that was not under duress. There's just no consideration on the other side (at least, that we've been told of)--although perhaps Algeron is a reaction to the Fed-Klingon alliance. The Klingons can keep their cloaks as can the Romulans, but the Federation is not permitted to and thus really upset the balance of military power; in return, the Romulans undertake to no longer destabilize the Klingon peace. This is pretty much undercut by all those episodes where the Romulans do destabilize the Klingon peace, however.

As for more advanced aliens, that's more of premise issue. The notion that dozens of independently-developing species arrived at sapience, let alone civilization, in generally the same timeframe, is much less likely than the humanoid frames most of them possess. I think I'm glad they never did an episode trying to explain that, though. I see no reason why the Romulans wouldn't be the first in local space, in this age, to develop cloaking technology.

Actually, now that I think about it, I believe they're nearly the only ones to develop it independently. Klingons likely gained their cloaks from the Roms; Cardassians don't usually use cloaking devices; Feds almost never use cloaks; Talarians, Ferengi, Gorn, Tholians, etc., don't appear to either. (But Breen do. I think?)

 

[doctorfoto]

I had long assumed that cloaks on ships were highly advanced technology that was not easy to come by. Though personally - the joke among my friends is if you want cheap invisibility... in space, just paint your ship black! Obviously, like the stealth ships we have today, there's much more to it than that, but still.

I kind of wish that there would have been a nice in-universe explanation that cloaking tech was difficult to install because each device had to be custom built for each ship, due to their varying sizes and mass, but alas - if you happen to have any old cloak handy and a few hours to do the install, it seems you can just plug a cloaking device into any ship you want and viola! ...bye-bye ship.

Also, based on what we've seen on screen, I don't think cloaking tech is as difficult to come by as I had originally thought - as the Klingons went through ships all the time and the cloak was a standard feature. Also, every one of the hundreds of mines Rom created contained a cloaking device and when destroyed they would simply replicate a new one, also with a cloaking device.

That's just a shame, because it implies that every species without the tech remains so simply out of good faith because they're 'not supposed to' or whatever. You would think with tech that powerful that every shady species in the quadrant would have it installed. Maybe it takes a super-smart engineer to put one in... who knows?

 

[Myasishchev]

Those cloaked, self-replicating mines might be the worst instance of overreaching treknobabble in DS9. They're not just cloaked, self-replicating, and automated--which is all bad enough--the inferred powers of the mines make them even more ridiculous, since they apparently have always-on shielding that foreclosed the most obvious solution to the minefield problem, that being throwing thousands of photon torpedoes into it till every or most of the mines were cleared by gamma ray bursts. Additionally, each self-replicated mine presumably had relativistic, impulse-like stationkeeping abilities which they freely used, despite being bundled in a cloak.

The runner-up is the Tesla-approved remotely-powered killer satellites in "Tears of the Prophets." What was up with that, I mean, at all?

 

[Timo]

I'd say the latter is something Trek has been needing for a long while. It's the only way to justify the Trek style of space warfare, really. We've been told time and again that a single starship can snuff out an entire planet or civilization, if allowed to proceed. Why, here's how you stop a starship from proceeding!

If the Cardassians could quickly whip up such a defense as a fallback plan, we can presume that most self-respecting planets have systems of comparable scope around them to stop invading starship formations from terminating their civilizations - unless said formations feature hundreds or thousands of these hugely potent ships.

OTOH, unless such an invasion fleet is part of the plot of the week, said defense system will not appear in the plot in any way, even if it physically exists in orbit. It has no alternate uses: it just defends the planet (or, possibly, can be turned against the planet in an extreme plot twist). A perfect story element in every way!

As for the mines, again they're only as good as they have to be against starships, which are problematically powerful to begin with. Nothing less would really suffice...

One might argue against torpedoes in WWII movies, because they give an unrealistic advantage to submarines and destroyers against capital ship. Yet one couldn't have WWII without torpedoes...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

Timo, I don't oppose the notion of killsats. I actually love the notion of killsats. I would marry a killsat.

I'm framing it pretty narrowly: I oppose the notion of remote transmission of power to the killsats which permit Our Heroes to blow up the asteroidal moon with the actual power source. At most, that's the kind of thing that would be appropriate in a video game. Might as well have had the asteroid flash when it was vulnerable.

I also question the stupidity of automated 24th century killsats that can't visually identify enemy ships and are so easily juked by "painting warp signatures" on their own power source. At the very least, shouldn't they be hardcoded to not fire on that location?