Class Development: Galaxy + Nebula + What Else?
- Thread starter DEWLine
- Start date
Most of the Wolf 359 ships seemed to be contemporaries of that generation of design, IIRC (at least, the ones that weren’t the repurposed reused Excelsior study models). In addition to the ones you mentioned, there was also the Challenger, Springfield, and Niagara. A few torn-apart Connies were also out there.
My assumption has always been that the Galaxy class was the last of the family. Those smaller classes refined the technology and allowed bigger versions of the machinery. I say this because I had the impression that the ships of Wolf 359 were not as new as the Enterprise, which was only three years old and was the second ship of her class.
--Alex
--Alex
I agree, it comes down to simple time.. It takes time to refine a design in full, if you can have off shoots as smaller ships like crusiers, frigates, etc that are based on a larger design, you don't have to waste time and effort to come up with a new design for said crusier.. That and all the supporting equipment, and even parts become standardized, and ends up with better effecincy.
So I suspect that theres an occasional big project for the next "Flagship" or other large class that they need, maybe every 25 years or so, and there would be work on smaller vessels as offshoots.
So I suspect that theres an occasional big project for the next "Flagship" or other large class that they need, maybe every 25 years or so, and there would be work on smaller vessels as offshoots.
I'd like to think that the Galaxy Class Project did indeed spawn the Nebula-class, Cheyenne-class, and New Orleans-class. I favor the idea that Galaxy-class was something of a testbed for new design ideas. The Galaxy-class itself, however, was something of an albatross, IMO, and its smaller offshoots were able to join the fleet ahead of it.
At least in my own little world...
At least in my own little world...
@Rick Sternbach, any thoughts about this? I'd wanted to raise it yesterday at Non-Fiction Friday's chat...
I've come up with the idea that modular ship design families started to fall out of favor with the Excelsior-era, and the Galaxy spin-off designs were an experiment in returning to that practice rather than having fully-bespoke ship designs, but it proved to be disappointing, with the Galaxy- and Nebula-classes being successful, while the Cheyenne, New Orleans, Freedom, and so on were disappointing, and weren't produced in the same numbers as the Akiras, Steamrunners, and Sabers, which, from the registry numbers, were about the same age, and all use unique structural subassemblies, which continued to be the style of the time (at least, up until near the turn of the century, but we'll probably need to see more of that era to figure out what the deal is there).
Pretty much this. The Galaxy class was basically the pinnacle of that design family, which included the Challenger, Cheyenne, Freedom, New Orleans, Olympic, Springfield, and Nebula classes, the last of which I believe came before the Galaxy based on registry numbers (to me, the Niagara has more Ambassador-era attributes even though it has GCS nacelles, and the four FC ships are really oddities that don't quite fit into the lineage 100%.) But after the Galaxy class, Starfleet's design lineage changed to the Sovereign style of starships.
I also think that the Galaxy "design family" was a pretty recent addition to the TNG time period, maybe only 10 years before TNG. Based on registry numbers, I think the old TMP movie designs lasted a very long time before Starfleet decided to build newer ships.Which would explain why there were a million Excelsiors and Mirandas flying around in the 2360's-'70's while there were hardly any of the Galaxy family.
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Could also be that the TMP era of ships were built during a more militarily focused time with a very large fleet being considered great policy. Such that a surplus of ships were still in service til the mid-24th Century and the relatively fewer ships of the Ambassador and Galaxy families were more focused on technological development rather than filling out fleet numbers.
On a related note, I am on board with the idea that most of the Ambassador ships were sent out on very long range exploration missions and were still very distantly deployed during the Dominion War which explains why we saw so few of them around. In my head-canon, the Ambassador class proved to be the most capable dedicated long range explorer Starfleet ever made (And they did that on purpose, naming these ships "ambassador" as they were on a peaceful mission of exploration and outreach to the unknown regions of the galaxy.)
--Alex
On a related note, I am on board with the idea that most of the Ambassador ships were sent out on very long range exploration missions and were still very distantly deployed during the Dominion War which explains why we saw so few of them around. In my head-canon, the Ambassador class proved to be the most capable dedicated long range explorer Starfleet ever made (And they did that on purpose, naming these ships "ambassador" as they were on a peaceful mission of exploration and outreach to the unknown regions of the galaxy.)
--Alex
Mucho nodding, although I feel the Akira at least is a natural candidate for membership in this family. And as for Niagara, I trust it is a previous-generation design that has been given an engine refit recently, while Springfield and Cheyenne are early members of the Galaxy family (as per the registry in the former case at least) that still retain an earlier engine style despite having moved on to a new hull fashion.
Well, the chain of onscreen and backstage connections would have us believe that the New Orleans class Renegade was an active player back in 2347, with a 57000 range registy; the other "older" family members, with like registries, could be dated to that era, too. The Galaxy sisters are some "15000 units newer", and it would be fun to think this means 15 years newer by and large...
We might try out a couple of other models, too: perhaps the new Galaxy-style ships were numerous but being sent to frontline assignments and thus far away from the cameras, say. And to important wartime tasks in the Dominion War, too, therefore far away from Sisko's backwater space station where nothing much ever happened during the war (save, of course, for those key events that rendered the place strategically irrelevant by removing the wormhole from the picture).
Timo Saloniemi
I think you're thinking of the Rutledge, not the Renegade, and the date of 2347 for the Setlik III massacre. However, there's a dating discrepancy, as 'Tribunal' has the massacre taking place in 2362, which would make more sense, since since O'Brien would have left the Rutledge at that time to serve on the new Enterprise-D a few years later.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Setlik_III_massacre
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Since the Setlik issue is more complex than that, it's also much simpler...
The writers used Setlik as a key backstory element in three episodes. They never bothered to get their pseudo-facts straight in any revisit, though, so what we end up with is two blatantly distinct Setlik adventures at the very least, although there's enough material for three if need be.
Between the three episodes and assorted other tidbits, we have at least these two incompatible events, one fitting the 2347 date and another the 2362 one, and both easily fitting in the same universe:
1) An incident 20 years before TNG that involves a massacre of civilians by mere Cardassian militia and a humiliating retreat by a small away team from the Rutledge. Dating from O'Brien's history with transporters, which pretty much necessitates this early adventure.
2) A battle during the Cardassian War that involves no massacre we would ever hear about, but has Starfleet triumphing over regimentfuls of regular Cardassian military, although at least one Rutledge crew member gets captured. Dating optional, but e.g. the 2362 sharp we get from "Tribunal" can apply here.
That the Rutledge would be present in both events is quite understandable in-universe because Setlik III is where the family of her captain lives and dies. And where the ship also slips in quite comfortably is the model where her 57000 rego means "built 47 years after NCC-10000, which was built at the turn of the century", so that a complex TOS era system with possible double-zero class leaders and assorted esoteric back-and-forth gives way to simple running numbers that apply for all of the 24th century.
At that point, it's serendipity time. While the "old-hulled" Niagara class Princeton has a highish registry, we hear of another ship of the class with an "old registry", allowing us to believe in two production batches of which the first might have been refit and the second built to modern specs if need be. Opposite cases, of new ships having old registries, are exceedingly rare: only the MVAM Prometheus gives us trouble there...
Timo Saloniemi
The writers used Setlik as a key backstory element in three episodes. They never bothered to get their pseudo-facts straight in any revisit, though, so what we end up with is two blatantly distinct Setlik adventures at the very least, although there's enough material for three if need be.
Between the three episodes and assorted other tidbits, we have at least these two incompatible events, one fitting the 2347 date and another the 2362 one, and both easily fitting in the same universe:
1) An incident 20 years before TNG that involves a massacre of civilians by mere Cardassian militia and a humiliating retreat by a small away team from the Rutledge. Dating from O'Brien's history with transporters, which pretty much necessitates this early adventure.
2) A battle during the Cardassian War that involves no massacre we would ever hear about, but has Starfleet triumphing over regimentfuls of regular Cardassian military, although at least one Rutledge crew member gets captured. Dating optional, but e.g. the 2362 sharp we get from "Tribunal" can apply here.
That the Rutledge would be present in both events is quite understandable in-universe because Setlik III is where the family of her captain lives and dies. And where the ship also slips in quite comfortably is the model where her 57000 rego means "built 47 years after NCC-10000, which was built at the turn of the century", so that a complex TOS era system with possible double-zero class leaders and assorted esoteric back-and-forth gives way to simple running numbers that apply for all of the 24th century.
At that point, it's serendipity time. While the "old-hulled" Niagara class Princeton has a highish registry, we hear of another ship of the class with an "old registry", allowing us to believe in two production batches of which the first might have been refit and the second built to modern specs if need be. Opposite cases, of new ships having old registries, are exceedingly rare: only the MVAM Prometheus gives us trouble there...
Timo Saloniemi
I’m pretty sure the references to Setlik III in ‘The Wounded’ and ‘Tribunal’ were not meant to be two separate events. Therefore, the episode which actually mentions a specific date for the event (eight years before the episode, which equals 2362) has more credence than a conjectural date based only on O’Brien’s transporter history. Canonically, the one trumps the other.
Not to mention that the Rutledge being a New Orleans class ship with that specific registry isn’t actually canon either, since we never saw the ship.
Not to mention that the Rutledge being a New Orleans class ship with that specific registry isn’t actually canon either, since we never saw the ship.
In that case, the 2347 reference would trump the 2362 one, for a number of reasons.
1) Neither episode actually says anything at all about when the respective Setlik III adventures took place. "The Wounded" says nothing at all; "Tribunal" makes multiple references to an event eight years before the episode present, but that event is the release of the Boone character from Cardassian captivity specifically, not the Setlik fight. (Those two are separated by a time Bashir refers to with the word "shortly" - and we really can't tell if he's talking of two minutes or six years there.)
2) "Armageddon Game" and "Paradise" put together make pretty inescapable references to O'Brien being a veteran of two decades of transporter magic, this starting very specifically at Setlik. And this is the man himself talking, not his wife or doctor as in "Tribunal".
3) 2347 thus would create no in-universe conflict, even if it is far from satisfactory as long as it represents a "Single Setlik" model. 2362 would be in conflict with given pseudofacts.
Happily, we don't have to choose. Cardassians obviously saw something in Setlik III, and would be likely to fight over it for decades at an end - they love to carry grudges, as with Betreka. And Maxwell would keep on returning, too, at the slightest excuse. At "Tribunal", we might still have argued that a muddled issue might be decided in favor of writer intent. But with "Empok Nor", writer intent is dead, the newer ones pissing on the work of the earlier ones with abandon, and what we have is the material for two completely different incidents - of which one should take place in 2347, while the other need not be in 2362 at all.
Timo Saloniemi
1) Neither episode actually says anything at all about when the respective Setlik III adventures took place. "The Wounded" says nothing at all; "Tribunal" makes multiple references to an event eight years before the episode present, but that event is the release of the Boone character from Cardassian captivity specifically, not the Setlik fight. (Those two are separated by a time Bashir refers to with the word "shortly" - and we really can't tell if he's talking of two minutes or six years there.)
2) "Armageddon Game" and "Paradise" put together make pretty inescapable references to O'Brien being a veteran of two decades of transporter magic, this starting very specifically at Setlik. And this is the man himself talking, not his wife or doctor as in "Tribunal".
3) 2347 thus would create no in-universe conflict, even if it is far from satisfactory as long as it represents a "Single Setlik" model. 2362 would be in conflict with given pseudofacts.
Happily, we don't have to choose. Cardassians obviously saw something in Setlik III, and would be likely to fight over it for decades at an end - they love to carry grudges, as with Betreka. And Maxwell would keep on returning, too, at the slightest excuse. At "Tribunal", we might still have argued that a muddled issue might be decided in favor of writer intent. But with "Empok Nor", writer intent is dead, the newer ones pissing on the work of the earlier ones with abandon, and what we have is the material for two completely different incidents - of which one should take place in 2347, while the other need not be in 2362 at all.
Timo Saloniemi
There is only one solution.
We need a lost Era novel about the Setlik massacre.
We need a lost Era novel about the Setlik massacre.
And of the Battle of Setlik III. 
(We actually got one, in the SCE series, but that referred to yet third Battle of Setlik III, in the Dominion War...)
It's pretty convenient to think of the 71000 range as the last hurrah of the "Galaxy design family", and the 57000s as the first inklings of the era, with the Galaxy nacelles being one of the last things to "mature". Those marker-pen nacelles are surprisingly pretty on the "early" ships, and would well defend their place on the New Orleans as well; perhaps we could postulate a refit there as well? And, conversely, imagine that some of the Springfield and Cheyenne ships got stretched half-Galaxy nacelles eventually, too?
Those "half-size" nacelles that are seen in their slightly stretched form on the New Orleans also appear unstretched on one of the Nebula variants, namely the first one that was "beefed up" by Okuda from the Miarecki original for service as a Wolf 359 wreck and as a desktop decoration. I'd love to think that the actually belong to the smaller spacecraft that is riding piggy-back to the "actual" Nebula there, a separable assault craft of whatever. Despite their odd genesis, all the "Galaxy kids" are attractive starship designs, and the odd additions to, say, the Chekov tickle the imagination. What would these ships look without the "optional modules"? Or might they carry modules in addition to the configurations seen? It's too bad that only the Nebula was ever revisited...
Timo Saloniemi
(We actually got one, in the SCE series, but that referred to yet third Battle of Setlik III, in the Dominion War...)
It's pretty convenient to think of the 71000 range as the last hurrah of the "Galaxy design family", and the 57000s as the first inklings of the era, with the Galaxy nacelles being one of the last things to "mature". Those marker-pen nacelles are surprisingly pretty on the "early" ships, and would well defend their place on the New Orleans as well; perhaps we could postulate a refit there as well? And, conversely, imagine that some of the Springfield and Cheyenne ships got stretched half-Galaxy nacelles eventually, too?
Those "half-size" nacelles that are seen in their slightly stretched form on the New Orleans also appear unstretched on one of the Nebula variants, namely the first one that was "beefed up" by Okuda from the Miarecki original for service as a Wolf 359 wreck and as a desktop decoration. I'd love to think that the actually belong to the smaller spacecraft that is riding piggy-back to the "actual" Nebula there, a separable assault craft of whatever. Despite their odd genesis, all the "Galaxy kids" are attractive starship designs, and the odd additions to, say, the Chekov tickle the imagination. What would these ships look without the "optional modules"? Or might they carry modules in addition to the configurations seen? It's too bad that only the Nebula was ever revisited...
Timo Saloniemi
Perhaps a number of the ships we saw were experimental. But could be armed, and were therefore thrown into battle.
Might also be that certain types were dedicated to core world defense, and therefore never seen in regular episodes that did not deal with core worlds. Perhaps those Miarecki study models fought the Breen at Earth in "The Changing Face of Evil", but had no business fighting the Dominion or the Cardassians out there at Bajor?
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
