Civil War (Marvel Comics)

[Mr Light]

I just finally read the trade of this. Interesting stuff. Gorgeous art. Parts of it felt a little disjointed though, due to events happening outside of the main mini. For example in one scene we see Spidey at the funeral with Iron Man, whispering off with May and MJ, the next scene the two of them are in the middle of a fight.

Which tie-ins were particularly important and/or well done? Which trade would show Spidey turning on Iron Man?

Everytime the mini would have a one panel reference to some action, did it actually appear in a tie-in comic? Like Cap's Secret Avengers capturing a bunch of super villains?

In light of the Skrull invasion, I found SHIELD Director Maria Hill highly suspicious. I haven't seen her in anything else, but why was she so damn anxious to go after the heroes with "cape killer" units and turned on Cap the hot second he refused to go along with it? Seems like she would be a perfect agent provocateur.

Also, I have to say they handled Iron Man's characterization very well. I had read of the events and everybody complained that IM was made into an insane dick, and I understand this is true in the tie-in issues maybe, but he was handled well here.

What was Iron Man doing in his own comic? Or Cap?

And did they ever show what the super villains were doing during the war? Just sitting out and letting their enemies wear each other down?

When did the New Avengers and Mighty Avengers series start in relation to the war? Was M-A created after the war, the remains of Cap's movement?

What's the deal with The Sentry? I hear all this stuff about him, how he's the most powerful figure in the Marvel Universe but he's plagued by phobias. He was there in Iron Man's army in the mini, so why couldn't he just wipe the floor with them all single handed?

Also, what else has Steven McNiven done, cause his art was amazing!

 

[Hermiod]

I just finally read the trade of this. Interesting stuff. Gorgeous art. Parts of it felt a little disjointed though, due to events happening outside of the main mini. For example in one scene we see Spidey at the funeral with Iron Man, whispering off with May and MJ, the next scene the two of them are in the middle of a fight.

Which tie-ins were particularly important and/or well done? Which trade would show Spidey turning on Iron Man?

I bought these in individual issue form so I do not know what trades you should buy but Amazing Spider-Man covered the Spider-Man's decision to turn against Iron Man very well.

I would suggest the Fantastic Four one as well, and possibly the Thunderbolts trade.

Everytime the mini would have a one panel reference to some action, did it actually appear in a tie-in comic? Like Cap's Secret Avengers capturing a bunch of super villains?

I don't think it was shown, actually. It's worth reading New Avengers as each issue covered the war from the perspective of a different member of the team.

In light of the Skrull invasion, I found SHIELD Director Maria Hill highly suspicious. I haven't seen her in anything else, but why was she so damn anxious to go after the heroes with "cape killer" units and turned on Cap the hot second he refused to go along with it? Seems like she would be a perfect agent provocateur.

While I do not believe Hill is a Skrull, she was more responsible than anyone for events taking the turn they took. She made an enemy of Cap before he ever had the chance not to be. You do not raise a gun to Captain America unless you are prepared to face the consequences.

Also, I have to say they handled Iron Man's characterization very well. I had read of the events and everybody complained that IM was made into an insane dick, and I understand this is true in the tie-in issues maybe, but he was handled well here.

This is very true. Millar presented Stark's side very well, but the tie-ins paint him in a very negative light, especially JMS' Amazing Spider-Man.

What was Iron Man doing in his own comic? Or Cap?

Cap's book ties the story in with Brubaker's on-going storyline - and the shock ending to Cap's involvement too.

I can't remember what Iron Man was up to really. I think only one or two issues of his book covered the Civil War.

And did they ever show what the super villains were doing during the war? Just sitting out and letting their enemies wear each other down?

Yes. Supervillains were very important. As you may know, Stark's side recruits the Thunderbolts. Stark hires them to capture supervillains and turn them to their side but the Thunderbolts already had a plan in place to do that and had already started.

The larger Supervillain reaction after the Civil War is covered in New Avengers, however. It all has to do with a guy named Parker Robbins...

When did the New Avengers and Mighty Avengers series start in relation to the war? Was M-A created after the war, the remains of Cap's movement?

New Avengers started long before the Civil War in the aftermath of Avengers: Disassembled.

At the end of the Civil War, Stark creates the Fifty State Initiative - a plan to put a superhero team in every state. In addition, he creates a new "official" Avengers team called the Mighty Avengers with Ms. Marvel as the leader, and The Sentry, Wonder Man, Ares, Wasp and Black Widow as her team.

The New Avengers continue, with a new underground team still opposed to the registration act headed by Luke Cage with Spider-Man, Iron Fist, Spider-Woman and Wolverine along with Luke's wife Jessica. Doctor Strange takes them in and uses magic to make it look like he has abandoned the Sanctum Sanctorum (soon to be turned in to a Starbucks, apparently). Two more members join after, but I won't spoil it.

A third title, Avengers: The Initiative focusing on the young Initiative recruits being trained to use their powers was also launched.

What's the deal with The Sentry? I hear all this stuff about him, how he's the most powerful figure in the Marvel Universe but he's plagued by phobias. He was there in Iron Man's army in the mini, so why couldn't he just wipe the floor with them all single handed?

The Sentry's issue of New Avengers covers this. He knows he could end the whole thing any time he wanted to but he is torn, so he visits some old friends on the Moon instead...

Also, what else has Steven McNiven done, cause his art was amazing!

Lots of things. He had a run on Amazing Spider-Man recently.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Which trade would show Spidey turning on Iron Man?

That happened in the Amazing Spider-Man issues, but I'd recommend not reading those, because JMS goes out of his way to make Iron Man a moustache-twirling villain.

What was Iron Man doing in his own comic? Or Cap?

Cap had three tie-in issues, which basically used the war as a backdrop to advance the ongoing story that had been (and still is) running in the book; the first was about the situation the war placed Cap's girlfriend Sharon (a SHIELD agent) in, the second was about the Winter Soldier, the third about Cap himself; mainly it set up the big events that followed the war in Cap's book.

Iron Man had two tie-in issues; the first was okay, the second (#14) was one of the best comics in recent years; they explored the isolating effects of being the leader, and in the latter he has a really major choice to make (though it's a personal one, not directly war-related).

And did they ever show what the super villains were doing during the war? Just sitting out and letting their enemies wear each other down?

Certain villains (the Red Skull in the Cap tie-ins) were shown to be advancing their plans, but they were largely absent.

When did the New Avengers and Mighty Avengers series start in relation to the war? Was M-A created after the war, the remains of Cap's movement?

Mighty Avengers is Iron Man's team, actually; it started post-CW #7; New Avengers' next phase began with issue #27, following the remaining anti-Registration Avengers.

If you're looking to read anything spinning out of Civil War, Captain America and Iron Man: Director of SHIELD would get my recommendation.

Also, what else has Steven McNiven done, cause his art was amazing!

Pre-CW I believe his most noted work was a few issues of Marvel Knights Fantastic Four.

Post-CW, he did the opening three issues of "Brand New Day"-era Amazing Spider-Man, and has now reunited with CW writer Mark Millar for an eight-issue Wolverine run that debuts tomorrow.

 

[Davros]

Now all we need are some Marvel Civil War re-enactors

 

[A beaker full of death]

Now all we need are some Marvel Civil War re-enactors

Do we really?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/earthdog/198297858/in/set-72157594205357540/

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1168/1021081487_7a6990514c.jpg?v=0

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1005/903637050_4cb371cec6.jpg

http://www.worldsgreatesttoys.com/images/sdcc07/sdcc_cap-girl.jpg

 

[Davros]

Now all we need are some Marvel Civil War re-enactors

Do we really?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/earthdog/198297858/in/set-72157594205357540/

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1168/1021081487_7a6990514c.jpg?v=0

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1005/903637050_4cb371cec6.jpg

http://www.worldsgreatesttoys.com/images/sdcc07/sdcc_cap-girl.jpg

Well they already did the Secret Wars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YveSHqhOkdo

 

[Mr Light]

Ah that begs another question, I know "Marvel Knights" means it was done by A-list talent and was rated R for violence or language or what-have-you.... but was it in-continuity? Or in its own little world?

 

[Guy Gardener]

It seems to be associated.

Civil War was HUGE!

You want see iron man being a Dick? That's Amazing Spider-Man by JMS(Babylon 5, duh.) who was also doing Fantastic Four and the stories interwebbed and overlapped since JMS was able to co-ordinate with himself quite well.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Now all we need are some Marvel Civil War re-enactors

Do we really?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/earthdog/198297858/in/set-72157594205357540/

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1168/1021081487_7a6990514c.jpg?v=0

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1005/903637050_4cb371cec6.jpg

http://www.worldsgreatesttoys.com/images/sdcc07/sdcc_cap-girl.jpg

Well they already did the Secret Wars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YveSHqhOkdo

bwhahahahahahahaha

 

[Davros]

Civil War was HUGE!

Even Howard The Duck made an appearance.

 

[Hermiod]

^Heh, mainly because Leinil Francis Yu keeps dropping him in to crowd scenes, much to Bendis' frustration.

In the big crowd shot in Secret Invasion #1 (you know the one I mean) Yu was made to swear that he wouldn't sneak him in.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I recall that Terry Austin used to sneak Popeye into crowded scenes as well. Two instances that I recall off the top of my head is X-Men #125, in a crowded scene filled with aliens in what IIRC was the Shi'ar throneroom. Another instance is in the X-Men/Teen Titans team-up in the crowd departing the park after the threat is over.

 

[Hermiod]

Ah that begs another question, I know "Marvel Knights" means it was done by A-list talent and was rated R for violence or language or what-have-you.... but was it in-continuity? Or in its own little world?

That's slightly incorrect. Marvel Knights titles were written for slightly older audiences but they still take place in the main continuity.

Marvel Knights Wolverine's Enemy of the State storyline has a significant effect on the Secret Invasion storyline going on now. Another example is Venom. Venom is no longer bonded with Eddie Brock since Brock is dying of cancer, but with Mac Gargan, formerly known as the Scorpion. This is still the case now that Gargan is a member of the Thunderbolts.

You may be thinking of the MAX line which covered books like Alias and Doctor Spectrum. Alias, at least, featured very strong language and sexual references. There were scenes were Jessica was caught by her little brother masturbating and where the Purple Man was raping mind-controlled college girls.

Alias does take place in the main continuity but Bendis was restricted in how he could use more mainstream Marvel characters.

Luke Cage and Jessica Jones' relationship started in Alias, and stuck when she started appearing more frequently in other books.

 

[firehawk12]

I must say, I just read the Young Avengers HC and it was kind of neat to see Jessica Jones pop up as a mentor-like figure. I guess this was when Pulse was still running though.

 

[Hermiod]

^Young Avengers was great. Hopefully Alan Heinberg will pick it up again.

Young Avengers Presents is not so good. I had to skip one issue (The Vision) because fucking Cornell's dirty fingerprints were all over it.

 

[Thrall]

CW pretty much sums up alot of what I dislike about The Quesada Marvel. It was mindless drivel. It was fun drivel though. If there is one thing I'll give Mark Millar is that he knows how to write action. Which is what he should stick to. When ever he gets all politicy he comes off like Micheal Bay doing a movie on FDR. It just comes off as retarded alot of times. When Hercules did the Lloyd Benson line I almost laughed for 10 minutes straight. He might have been trying to be ironic, but this is Mark Millar, and quite frankly I doubt he even knows what that is. Over all it's not great, but it's not terrible.

Several characters were so ridiculously out of character here:

-Cable, the most powerful telepath on earth and commando demi-God who can kick The Silver Surfers ass, running away from a fight with a clone of Thor. Not even the real Thor. Summers boys don't run away from fights. Cable does not run away from a fight. Period.

-And what was with his bizarre interpretation of The Punisher? That was not the character Garth Ennis writes once a month. Millar's Frank was a spandex-wearing, psychotic, moron rather then the cool, smart, tactician that is the standard.

-Bishop, being the expert on why registering is bad, joining the Pro-Regs for no good reason.

-While they explain why Tony does what he does, it's still out of character for him, imo, to create an army of mind-controlled super-villians or condoning the murder of Goliath or selling out his fellow super hero's so he can feel better about himself or throwing away his 40 year blood brother friendship with Cap like it was nothing. Logically his motivations made sense. But I know the character I grew up reading would not act in such a douchebagish maner. The reason Cap and his guys are considered "the good guys" is because they're not the ones going around imposing their will on others with the power of a all-powerful government backing them up.

 

[Hermiod]

-Cable, the most powerful telepath on earth and commando demi-God who can kick The Silver Surfers ass, running away from a fight with a clone of Thor. Not even the real Thor. Summers boys don't run away from fights. Cable does not run away from a fight. Period.

The most powerful telepath on Earth is Charles Xavier, surely ?

All of the Secret Avengers ran away. It was a tactical retreat because they lost control of the situation. The weight of numbers and power levels was on the Pro-Reg's side the whole time.

-And what was with his bizarre interpretation of The Punisher? That was not the character Garth Ennis writes once a month. Millar's Frank was a spandex-wearing, psychotic, moron rather then the cool, smart, tactician that is the standard.

There is a reason why Frank doesn't show up for the big crossovers. He's not a team player.

-Bishop, being the expert on why registering is bad, joining the Pro-Regs for no good reason.

I did not like Civil War: X-Men. It seemed tacked on. I do not think we've seen the whole reason for Bishop's behaviour entirely. I think his behaviour in Messiah Complex is linked to this.

-While they explain why Tony does what he does, it's still out of character for him, imo, to create an army of mind-controlled super-villians or condoning the murder of Goliath or selling out his fellow super hero's so he can feel better about himself or throwing away his 40 year blood brother friendship with Cap like it was nothing. Logically his motivations made sense. But I know the character I grew up reading would not act in such a douchebagish maner. The reason Cap and his guys are considered "the good guys" is because they're not the ones going around imposing their will on others with the power of a all-powerful government backing them up.

If you read The Conversation, he's not throwing his friendship with Steve away at all. He is desperate to put things back to normal but he's got people like the President and Maria Hill in his ear the whole time.

It can be argued that Steve and co were imposing their will on others. It was clear that the general public overwhelmingly supported the Act. He didn't condone Goliath's death any more than he condoned any other action he felt he had to take - like blasting Bruce Banner in to space.

His actions later on in Captain America prove that he wants to do the right thing by Cap by taking Bucky in, even if it was too late for him to see the results.

 

[Thrall]

The most powerful telepath on Earth is Charles Xavier, surely ?

Last I heard Chuck didn't have any powers. Of course, I've pretty much washed my hands of Quesada Marvel so who knows.

All of the Secret Avengers ran away. It was a tactical retreat because they lost control of the situation. The weight of numbers and power levels was on the Pro-Reg's side the whole time.

No, I'm talking about after they got beat in the fight. Cable and a few others basicly said they should give up and register because Clone Thor is soooo scarrryyy. Whatever. This is coming from the guy that killed Stryfe and Apocolypse. He was practically peeing his pants. I'm not a huge Cable fan, but I know bullshit when I see it.

There is a reason why Frank doesn't show up for the big crossovers. He's not a team player.

Yeah, but he's a not a complete retard either, like Millar wrote him. The real Frank would have never gotten involved. If he did, he would not have shot those bad guys right in front of everyone. He would have slit their throats in the battle and then act like he didn't know how they died.

I did not like Civil War: X-Men. It seemed tacked on. I do not think we've seen the whole reason for Bishop's behaviour entirely. I think his behaviour in Messiah Complex is linked to this.

I've pretty much washed my hands of my childhood hero's. The sight of Emma Frost makes me ill. And to think I usually like mindless T@A. Thanks to Grant Morrison, I could really care less if they all live or die. I was just pointing out a character move that made little sense if you think about it. Here's hoping that that Slim and Hank who showed up in the Skrull ship is the real ones so I can start respecting the characters again.

If you read The Conversation, he's not throwing his friendship with Steve away at all. He is desperate to put things back to normal but he's got people like the President and Maria Hill in his ear the whole time.

A recton to save Tony's character reputation.

It can be argued that Steve and co were imposing their will on others. It was clear that the general public overwhelmingly supported the Act. He didn't condone Goliath's death any more than he condoned any other action he felt he had to take - like blasting Bruce Banner in to space.

No, they were trying to avoid being arrested and thrown into jail or become government thugs. Fighting just comes natural to them. In the end, Cap realized that that way doesn't solve anything.

Sure he did. The whole "Clone Thor just acted like any police officer would" comment.

His actions later on in Captain America prove that he wants to do the right thing by Cap by taking Bucky in, even if it was too late for him to see the results.

Again, another character retcon.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I loved the concept of Civil War just becuase the Marvel Universe needed a big shakeup and a (dare I say it, crisis of their own). I can understand the angry responses some of the events from the conflict created within fans such as Spidey unmasking (which I thought was damn cool), Tony Stark seemingly becoming an evil douchebag (now I'm thinking that maybe he was manipulated by Skrulls through out this whole thing), Reed Richards acting like a douchebag and nearly letting his marriage slip through his fingers. There were a lot of cool moments though that happened as well...

 

[Hermiod]

Last I heard Chuck didn't have any powers. Of course, I've pretty much washed my hands of Quesada Marvel so who knows.

Xavier got his powers back by touching the M'Kraan Crystal in Uncanny X-Men.

No, I'm talking about after they got beat in the fight. Cable and a few others basicly said they should give up and register because Clone Thor is soooo scarrryyy. Whatever. This is coming from the guy that killed Stryfe and Apocolypse. He was practically peeing his pants. I'm not a huge Cable fan, but I know bullshit when I see it.

He did not "pee his pants". Captain America ordered a strategic withdrawal because they were in an unpredictable situation. That's good leadership. They didn't know it was not the real Thor at this point. The real Thor is one of the Marvel Universe's biggest hitters. They do not want to be in a fight with him without being prepared.

Yeah, but he's a not a complete retard either, like Millar wrote him. The real Frank would have never gotten involved. If he did, he would not have shot those bad guys right in front of everyone. He would have slit their throats in the battle and then act like he didn't know how they died.

Probably not, I agree.

I've pretty much washed my hands of my childhood hero's. The sight of Emma Frost makes me ill. And to think I usually like mindless T@A. Thanks to Grant Morrison, I could really care less if they all live or die. I was just pointing out a character move that made little sense if you think about it. Here's hoping that that Slim and Hank who showed up in the Skrull ship is the real ones so I can start respecting the characters again.

Emma Frost has very little to do with the Civil War except for reminding everyone that registering goes against everything the X-Men stand for.

No, they were trying to avoid being arrested and thrown into jail or become government thugs. Fighting just comes natural to them. In the end, Cap realized that that way doesn't solve anything.

Read the Civil War What Ifs. If everyone had fought back then there would have been more than one Thor clone.

I loved the concept of Civil War just becuase the Marvel Universe needed a big shakeup and a (dare I say it, crisis of their own). I can understand the angry responses some of the events from the conflict created within fans such as Spidey unmasking (which I thought was damn cool), Tony Stark seemingly becoming an evil douchebag (now I'm thinking that maybe he was manipulated by Skrulls through out this whole thing), Reed Richards acting like a douchebag and nearly letting his marriage slip through his fingers. There were a lot of cool moments though that happened as well...

I don't believe Stark or Richards' actions were particularly out of character. Stark has always let pressure get to him and Richards often lets his work get in the way of his marriage.