City on Edge of Forever Questions

[Methuselah Flint]

Hi guys,

Just a few questions to discuss, after watching this episode last night...

At the end of 'City on Edge...' why do Kirk and Spock return through the Guardian first, and then McCoy?

Also..how are they returned? Do they just disappear from Earth, or do they do a similar 'jump' to return? After all, Kirk and Spock return in their uniforms...so either they change first, or once the timeline is restored, does the Guardian merely 'pull' them back instantly, with no trace of their ever having been there? (I.e. all physical evidence of Kirk and Spock staying at the apartment, stealing the clothes etc ) If the latter, it would seem to suggest we witness a temporary parallel reality, which once restored to the 'normal' timeline, is destroyed with no trace of its existence. (The Guardian does say it would be as though none of you had gone...)

Any thoughts?

 

[Timo]

Hmm. What happens here would appear to be the Guardian's doing in every detail. Letting McCoy go to the past to meddle with history is something this clever machine could have prevented if it wanted; it thus looks like the machine is just giving our heroes a lesson in how not to behave, the ultimate aim being to make Kirk use a four-letter word on air, and never to return (at least not voluntarily).

I'd thus go with the "pull back instantly" model, there being no overt logic to the events but the Guardian's flair for the dramatic.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

To me, the whole episode is a prime example of the novikov self consistency principle: McCoy HAS to go into the past so that Kirk and Spock are FORCED to follow him, thus leading to the events in the episode where Edith Keeler crosses the road to see her boyfriend meet up with his pals, getting run down by a truck in the process and thus causing the very timeline our heroes originate from in the first place! That was easy, wasn't it? ;-)

Timo is also right in that the GOF performs a great deal of misdirection and "behind the scenes" action - I would never trust that thing.

 

[Mudd]

The Guardian's being pretty literal with it's line "It will be as though none of you had gone." They all have memories of their experience on Earth, nonetheless Uhura's line "You only left a moment ago" is also true. McCoy leaped into the Guardian, delusional, and landed...right back where he began, on the Guardian's planet. So did Kirk and Spock.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Hmm. What happens here would appear to be the Guardian's doing in every detail. Letting McCoy go to the past to meddle with history is something this clever machine could have prevented if it wanted

I don't see any indication that the Guardian could have prevented someone actually travelling through it. We never see this happen, anyway. For all we know, once the Guardian is activated, it lets anyone through who wants to.

 

[DonIago]

I'm sympathetic to Mytran's view that this may have been a predestination paradox, though there's no way to prove it either way that I'm aware of.

McCoy returns after the other two because there isn't room for all three of them to fit at the same time?

I like the idea that once their part in history (predestined or otherwise) was played out the Guardian simply swooped them back to the future (pardon the expression) and much like in a holodeck simulation nobody really registered that they'd ever been there to begin with.

There is the question of whether the timeline they return to is identical to the one they'd left, but I don't know how, without obvious differences, that could be confirmed short of a quantum signature check (and I'm not sure that TOS tech had evolved to the point where such was possible).

While I understand that in the context of the shows it would have been silly, I would think in-universe there must have been quantum signature checks conducted any time a time travel or alternate timeline incident occurred; certainly after "Parallels" it would be, in my mind, unforgivable not to require such a test.

 

[Melakon]

At the end of 'City on Edge...' why do Kirk and Spock return through the Guardian first, and then McCoy?

It seems a natural closure to events to me, since McCoy went through first, followed by Kirk and Spock.

 

[Redfern]

If all three tried to jump through the Guardian at the same time, it could have wound up looking like a "Three Stooges" bit of schtick with them getting stuck!

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[Green Shirt]

^"Spread out!!!", followed by Spock (with his Moe haircut) slapping and head bonking Kirk and McCoy.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I don't see any indication that the Guardian could have prevented someone actually travelling through it. We never see this happen, anyway. For all we know, once the Guardian is activated, it lets anyone through who wants to.

This seems to be the case; the Guardian is a hands-off device; it leaves all decisions up to the user, since it's own existence is not threatened by user action into their own history.

McCoy beaming down was not part of some Guardian-manipulated plan, as it could not lead McCoy to give himself an accidental overdose of Cordrazine, flee the ship, or stay in the general area of the Guardian so he would learn its function. All random chance, which makes the doctor's actions all the more dangerous (in the eyes of the viewers).

 

[DonIago]

Actually, given that we know the Guardian was sending out waves of time (Spock's description IIRC), perhaps it did do all those things...

 

[alpha_leonis]

Hi guys,

Also..how are they returned? Do they just disappear from Earth, or do they do a similar 'jump' to return? After all, Kirk and Spock return in their uniforms...so either they change first, or once the timeline is restored, does the Guardian merely 'pull' them back instantly, with no trace of their ever having been there? (I.e. all physical evidence of Kirk and Spock staying at the apartment, stealing the clothes etc ) If the latter, it would seem to suggest we witness a temporary parallel reality, which once restored to the 'normal' timeline, is destroyed with no trace of its existence. (The Guardian does say it would be as though none of you had gone...)

Any thoughts?

Well, we saw how McCoy *arrived* (from the bum's perspective) -- no really "special" effects, he just faded in and landed from his jump.

I'm assuming "returning" would be roughly the same. They'd jump towards the same empty wall, and disappear as if it was Platform Nine and Three Quarters.

 

[FormerLurker]

The Guardian's being pretty literal with it's line "It will be as though none of you had gone." They all have memories of their experience on Earth, nonetheless Uhura's line "You only left a moment ago" is also true. McCoy leaped into the Guardian, delusional, and landed...right back where he began, on the Guardian's planet. So did Kirk and Spock.

Not exactly. Remember, McCoy was crazed by the cordrazine when he first went through, yet was normal, or so, when he returned. Something happened, had to have happened. But the big three are the only ones that know, or will ever know, what it is.

 

[Ithekro]

They say you only went though a moment ago (I think it was Scott not Uhura) after Spock and Kirk jump back. McCoy jumps back after that line.

 

[johnnybear]

The time on the Guardian's planet moved on only a moment but for Kirk,Spock and McCoy it had been a few weeks! Typical of the time travel rules and regulations I'd say!
JB

 

[Alter Ego]

I can't remember the source right now but I do remember once reading about a deleted scene where we see Kirk and Spock tossing their uniforms into the drawer of an old dresser in the basement of the Mission. Presumably they changed their clothes before returning to the spot where they had come through.

 

[Mytran]

It doesn't really matter where they hid their uniforms though - they had no apparent means of communication with the GOF, so how would they know when the "appointment time" of recall was? Hanging round a public spot for hours (or days) in their Starfleet uniforms does not seem like a wise course of action!

FWIW, I tend to imagine the GOF simply removing them (discretely) from the 1930s once their mission in that timeline was complete. If you can transport people through space and time whilst simultaneously monitoring the ebb and flow of the universe's timestreams then a simple wardrobe change ought to be a doddle

 

[Alter Ego]

I always thought of it as operating the same way as the portals to Mr. Atoz's library. That would explain Spock and Kirk having to come back through together and separate from McCoy.

 

[FormerLurker]

That would be Spock and McCoy having to come back together, and separate from Kirk.

 

[Alter Ego]

Yes, but I was talking about CITEOF by making a comparison to All Our Yesterdays.