Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Merge]

[JarodRussell]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

2. In TWOK, Spock clearly states that the Reliant, a smaller ship than the Enterprise, is faster and has more weaponry than the Enterprise.

Was that before or after the Enterprise had been caught by surprise and left badly crippled?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3DMaster: You're confusing "looks more advanced" with "more detailed CG".
The 1701 prime kept all it's features (thrusters, phasers etc) hidden. The Kelvin doesn't. The NX01 before it didn't, and the TMP Enterprise (and all later ships) didn't. Therefore: disguising exterior systems (which was Matt Jeffries intent) was a fad of the era, nothing more. Maybe some designer wanted the ship to look "less threatening" or something.
In the 23rd century they should be at the point of art-meets-technology. They can make whatever ship look however they want it to at the time.

About weapons: Remember TMP talked about big phaser improvements just a few years after the 5YM. Thus TOS' were likely improved over 2233's.

Even if Kelvin had powerful engines and weapons, there are any number of reasons you could invent as to why one wasn't at M5's little get-together. Long-range missions for one.

The Kelvin really is no harder to reconcile with TOS than ENT, TNG or any of the internal TOS contradictions were.

 

[-Brett-]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Notice the differences? TNG Rommies have hair. They also have very pronounced eyebrow and forhead ridges. Abramsverse Rommies are bald and tatooed

So the Romulans can figure out warp drive, but somehow razor blades, needles, and ink are beyond them?

As for the ridges, they never made a bit of sense to begin with. If they can be introduced without any kind of explanation, they can be removed the same way.

We know from TNG and the TNG-era movies what the 24th century Romulan design aesthetic is.

We know what their military ships look like. Not the civillian ones.

 

[Dukhat]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Which was a ship-class that was created after the Constitution-class. And I'm not so sure it is bigger. It seems it is a Constitution class with a third warp-nacelles to power more and more powerful weaponry. A dedicated warship.

There's no proof that it was created after, other than the registry, which isn't chronological anyway because the Excelsior had a lower registry than the Entente but was a newer ship. Regardless, it is still contemporary to the Constitution class. And FJ's manual has the ship at 320 meters as opposed to the Connie's 289 meters (The third nacelle does not make the ship longer).

More weaponry, yes, NOT, however, more POWERFUL weaponry.

How do you know that?

Which means exactly jack shit when it comes to a fleet of thousands and a ship-class that has been around for at least two decades.

Where was it ever said in TOS that Starfleet had thousands of ships?

 

[Harvey]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

That bugged me too. NuKirk was clearly younger than the Captain Kirk that the Spock that we know should have remembered. And I'm sure OldSpock knew what year it was. He's pretty smart. Also, Nero probably told him what year it was when he had him prisoner on the Narada. Cuz that's what maniacal madmen do when they monologue their schemes to the good guy they've just captured. But yes, to our Spock, Kirk should have been a rank or two under Captain at that time. And OldSpock should have known that.

At the time, Kirk was probably 5 years younger than when he took command of the Enterprise. He wasn't wearing the gold tunic indicating rank (and, indeed, had on a big coat at the time further obscuring his clothing). But before I repeat myself, let me just quote an earlier post:

In Star Trek (2009) Kirk is 25.38 years old when he meets Spock Prime, according to the stardates in the film. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't actually know exactly when Kirk took command of the original Enterprise. We can make an assumption based upon what we do know, however. We know that the Enterprise is on a five-year mission. We know that during the middle of the second season Kirk is 34 years old ("The Deadly Years"). We know that the five-year mission lasts for at least a year and half beyond that episode (approximately). We don't know when Kirk's birthday is, beyond a stardate in "Where No Man Has Gone Before." Since that stardate is found on a tombstone which gives Kirk the middle initial of "R." and due to the notoriously unreliable nature of stardates on Star Trek (1966-1969) this information doesn't help us. For all we know Kirk may have just turned 34 prior to "The Deadly Years" or he may have been about to turn 35.

Knowing all this information, we can guess that Kirk is somewhere in his early 30s when he takes command of the Enterprise in the original timeline, probably between 30 and 31.

Therefore, Spock Prime emerges into the past at an indeterminate point (Nero didn't know when he was either, which is why he must ask Robau). He meets Kirk, without a tunic indicating rank, at the age of 25.38 (Kirk may be "barely out of the academy" in the new movie, but keep in mind that due to the death of his father he delayed entry into Starfleet). Spock misjudges the age of his old friend, who he hasn't seen in decades, by five years. Big deal.

 

[3D Master]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3DMaster: You're confusing "looks more advanced" with "more detailed CG".
The 1701 prime kept all it's features (thrusters, phasers etc) hidden. The Kelvin doesn't. The NX01 before it didn't, and the TMP Enterprise (and all later ships) didn't. Therefore: disguising exterior systems (which was Matt Jeffries intent) was a fad of the era, nothing more. Maybe some designer wanted the ship to look "less threatening" or something.
In the 23rd century they should be at the point of art-meets-technology. They can make whatever ship look however they want it to at the time.

Except of course that it isn't true, I also said nothing about "more advanced". In fact, I was talking about design aesthetics, style, engineering style and techniques. The Kelvin has the exact same style aesthetics as the original series 2280s, just plain simple.

It also isn't until the 24th century that art-meets-technology. Both in the Federation as in the Romulan Empire. The Galaxy-class is a graceful curved swan; the D'deridex is a hawk swooping down on its prey. As time passes by the ships became ever more expressive in their design-aesthetic.

This universe has 2280s design aesthetic in the 2230s.

About weapons: Remember TMP talked about big phaser improvements just a few years after the 5YM. Thus TOS' were likely improved over 2233's.

In case you hadn't noticed, but TOS Enterprise a 60-year-old ship got those improvements in a refit. Unless the improvements are such a massive fundamental difference you can't upgrade older ships with them, older ships will get those improvements. Which was rather part of my point.

Even if Kelvin had powerful engines and weapons, there are any number of reasons you could invent as to why one wasn't at M5's little get-together. Long-range missions for one.

Yes, like five-year-mission of the Enterprise.

Oh, wait a minute.

The Kelvin really is no harder to reconcile with TOS than ENT, TNG or any of the internal TOS contradictions were.

It is equally hard to reconcile with ENT; as in not at all.

TNG, not so much.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3D Master:
What exactly is your evidence that Kelvin has a 2280 design? I see a cylindrical nacelle, an external deflector, slightly off-white colouring. Inside I see levers, physical buttons, a Long Island power plant engine room...
On the 1701-A I see the engine and conference rooms of the 1701-D. Very 2280's. If they fit in 2280, the Kelvin bridge does in 2230.

We only ever saw one ship design from the 2260's. Why assume every Federation ship looks the same? Not every military ship today looks identical.

You say the TOS Enterprise is 60 years old at the time of it's refit? Do the math: 2270-2245=25.

The Federation is at design-meets-art during the 23rd century. Cars made now are made with unnecessary curves to "look good". Saying this ability will be lost in the future is just plain silly. The TOS saucer is far smoother than Kelvin's, anyway.

Don't conveniently forget that space is big. Often the Enterprise would be weeks away from subspace radio contact with Starfleet.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

There's nothing in TOS continuity to rule out ships larger than the Enterprise. In any event, TOS contradicted itself so often that almost anything can be justified.

 

[3D Master]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3D Master:
What exactly is your evidence that Kelvin has a 2280 design? I see a cylindrical nacelle, an external deflector, slightly off-white colouring. Inside I see levers, physical buttons, a Long Island power plant engine room...
On the 1701-A I see the engine and conference rooms of the 1701-D. Very 2280's. If they fit in 2280, the Kelvin bridge does in 2230.

Well, let's see: sharp-edged look of the saucer as opposed to the lazy curves of the TOS-Enterprise. Sharp-contrasting - deep - gridwork on the saucer as opposed to more gentle grid lines on the TOS enterprise. The style and connecting-style of the neck(s) to other parts of the ship. Glowing deflector dish, as opposed to the solid, simple dish of TOS-Enterprise. You know, ALL the things that have been noticed and said about the Kelvin even lovers of the movie ever since the first picture of the ship was released.

We only ever saw one ship design from the 2260's. Why assume every Federation ship looks the same? Not every military ship today looks identical.

Really? You ever checked out ships? The ship-classes themselves may look different, but the construction techniques you see in hulls of ships are virtually always identical. Only ships of different eras may show significant difference in construction techniques and styles, as new construction techniques only gradually change, and even then not immediately replace previous techniques. New materials change even slower, and they might force new techniques to be developed.

The Federation is at design-meets-art during the 23rd century. Cars made now are made with unnecessary curves to "look good". Saying this ability will be lost in the future is just plain silly. The TOS saucer is far smoother than Kelvin's, anyway.

Saying this quality will not have to be rediscovered for every brand new tecnhology, like starships and warp drive, THAT is silly. And no, the Federation is not like that in the 23rd century, the 2rd century is extremely utilitarian, chunks with no wasted space and form put together. It's the 24th century with the swan of the Galaxy class that you get to see art go in there. And that the TOS-saucer is smoother than the Kelvin is rather the point, as it is also smoother than the TMP saucer. Smoother doesn't always mean more advanced.

Don't conveniently forget that space is big. Often the Enterprise would be weeks away from subspace radio contact with Starfleet.

And?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

This is getting ridiculous. If Star Trek can present a single timeline that goes ENT-TOS-TNG-etc, say TOS all takes place in one universe (despite huge contradictions), then the Kelvin can happily fit between ENT and TOS.

The Kelvin looks they way it does because they updated the TOS look for a modern movie. It's big becuase the script required 800 survivors. If you can't accept these things and move on I'm suprised you survived the needless changes made in TMP, let alone Enterprise. Nonetheless, just like has happened since TOS, fans can make up excuses for every gaff, changed premise and outright contradiction if they want to.

I get that you don't want this film to hurt or make you re-evaluate your TOS worldview, but guess what? It's done. You don't like it? Fine - ignore it. End of story. Trying to "prove" to everyone your fanon viewpoint is the correct one using more and more obscure reasoning ("sharp edged saucer"?) is a waste.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

This is getting ridiculous. If Star Trek can present a single timeline that goes ENT-TOS-TNG-etc, say TOS all takes place in one universe (despite huge contradictions), then the Kelvin can happily fit between ENT and TOS.

The Kelvin looks they way it does because they updated the TOS look for a modern movie. It's big becuase the script required 800 survivors. If you can't accept these things and move on I'm suprised you survived the needless changes made in TMP, let alone Enterprise. Nonetheless, just like has happened since TOS, fans can make up excuses for every gaff, changed premise and outright contradiction if they want to.

I get that you don't want this film to hurt or make you re-evaluate your TOS worldview, but guess what? It's done. You don't like it? Fine - ignore it. End of story. Trying to "prove" to everyone your fanon viewpoint is the correct one using more and more obscure reasoning ("sharp edged saucer"?) is a waste.

Unfortunately, the same can be said of those who embrace the abramsverse as the "new Trek" and try to discount the (sometimes) legitimate claims of those of us who don't share their opinions. Those who approve of the abramsverse and the (quite obvious) changes made to the TOS universe by JJA attemp to discount the claims from the other camp by simply saying things like "but guess what? It's done. You don't like it? Fine - ignore it. End of story", or something to that effect. And that's fine. However, those of us who would rather have our Star Trek the way it was instead of trying to force feed us this new alternate universe BS, prefer to actually give reasons for our arguments instead of just saying "I don't like this or that because it all sucks so get over it!" or something to that effect. Telling people that they need to get over it, or that it's done and there's nothing you can do about it, etc. etc. doesn't help the situation. So what if the discussion goes round in circles? That's what a discussion board is for. Discussion. One side is not going to change the other's opoinion. But that doesn't mean that the "haters", or "canonists" as we're often called, don't have a right to voice our opinions as well as the gushers do.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

This is getting ridiculous.

Getting? No, its been quite ridiculous for awhile now.

 

[3D Master]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

This is getting ridiculous. If Star Trek can present a single timeline that goes ENT-TOS-TNG-etc,

It can't. Enterprise is nothing but continuity errors and horrifying lazy writing.

say TOS all takes place in one universe (despite huge contradictions), then the Kelvin can happily fit between ENT and TOS.

The Kelvin looks they way it does because they updated the TOS look for a modern movie. It's big becuase the script required 800 survivors. If you can't accept these things and move on I'm suprised you survived the needless changes made in TMP, let alone Enterprise. Nonetheless, just like has happened since TOS, fans can make up excuses for every gaff, changed premise and outright contradiction if they want to.

I get that you don't want this film to hurt or make you re-evaluate your TOS worldview, but guess what? It's done. You don't like it? Fine - ignore it. End of story. Trying to "prove" to everyone your fanon viewpoint is the correct one using more and more obscure reasoning ("sharp edged saucer"?) is a waste.

Except of course, that isn't a fanon viewpoint, it's simply the way the movie was written; and if you can't see the difference between the TOS-saucer and the Kelvin/TMP/nPrise saucer :shrugs: you need glasses. Even lovers of the JJPrise and the new Trek have pointed out the similarities.

 

[Dukhat]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Enterprise is nothing but continuity errors and horrifying lazy writing.

That may be true, but it is still a Paramount-authorized and official prequel to TOS, regardless of your personal feelings about the show. And on that basis, there's nothing to indicate that the Kelvin couldn't fit a design lineage somewhere between the NX-01 and the TOS Enterprise. It certainly looked fine to me.

 

[3D Master]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Enterprise is nothing but continuity errors and horrifying lazy writing.

That may be true, but it is still a Paramount-authorized and official prequel to TOS, regardless of your personal feelings about the show. And on that basis, there's nothing to indicate that the Kelvin couldn't fit a design lineage somewhere between the NX-01 and the TOS Enterprise. It certainly looked fine to me.

I disagree. Even if you take ENT into account, it still doesn't look like it fits within the design lineage at all.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

It does fit (as does Enterprise) if you accept that the look has been modernized. A visual update does not equal an alternate universe.

IMO the Enterprise in TOS-R should have had similar detailing to what we saw in the Kelvin - visible hull plates, thrusters, phaser turrets, weathering and so forth.

 

[shapeshifter]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

But because it doesn't proves one thing: they aren't trying to create an ironclad, completely cohesive canon. It isn't designed to stand up to the level of scrutiny the fanbase examines it at.

The best we can hope for are occasional moments that make our assholes tighten with excitement because some prior event was referenced making us momentarily believe in a pure Canon but it is all just an illusion.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

So the Romulans can figure out warp drive, but somehow razor blades, needles, and ink are beyond them?

You know the rule: if it wasn't shown on screen it didn't happen.

Including bowel movements.

For one thing, Nero and his crew have them--the make-up is just more subtle than it was on TNG and DS9. Second, we've seen Romulans without forehead ridges in the 23rd century (both Star Trek as well as TFF and TUC). Third, we've seen Romulans with forehead ridges in the 22nd century on Enterprise. Fourth, we saw Spock blending into a crowd of Romulans in "Unification," despite having no forehead ridges. It stands to reason, then, that there is some variation of the ridges among Romulans.

Also, Nero's wife has noticeable forehead ridges of the TNG class.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

If they actually expect anyone (well...TOS fans at least) to believe that OldSpock and Nero came from the Trekverse that we know and love, then they should have at least made some effort to connect it to the original.

Which they did. Including dialogue lifted directly from TWOK/TSFS and a character arc lifted from TNG, among many other things such as references to events first described in TOS episodes. In fact, the original deal was apparently something like "No Nimoy, no film". (Of course, that was clearly an attempt to generate viewers' interest through the appearance of an alternate Spock which they'd never heard of or cared about before, rather than the one they were already familiar with. )

 

[Dukhat]

Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Enterprise is nothing but continuity errors and horrifying lazy writing.

That may be true, but it is still a Paramount-authorized and official prequel to TOS, regardless of your personal feelings about the show. And on that basis, there's nothing to indicate that the Kelvin couldn't fit a design lineage somewhere between the NX-01 and the TOS Enterprise. It certainly looked fine to me.

I disagree. Even if you take ENT into account, it still doesn't look like it fits within the design lineage at all.

And I disagree with you. So I guess that makes us even.