Exactly.
Christopher Nolan talks Batman and Superman
- Thread starter JacksonArcher
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Exactly.
I have constant debates with my friend about Superman...he brings it up to provoke me on purpose because he knows I'm so passionate about Superman. He thinks his powers are magical because they can't be explained by known science and I'm like DUDE he's a fictional character using fictional physical explanations (although some grounded in real science) let it go but alas he can't. He called "Superman Returns" retarded lol.
In fairness, Superman Returns was retarded.
Parts of it weren't executed very well...but that wasn't the point of my post and I hope this doesn't start yet another debate about this film.
J
Jetfire
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Levitt has turned in some fine performances in recent indie films. I was skeptical about Heath Ledger as the Joker at first, but we saw how that turned out. I'd be interested to see JGL's take on the Riddler. I realize it's all speculation at this point, but if the rumors turned out to be true, it could be VERY interesting.
Hey Caligula haven't seen you around in a while! Yeah I'd be fine with Levitt as the Riddler but would much rather see him as a young Black Mask (maybe even the Jeremiah Arkham version) and David Tennant as Riddler.
Gordon-Levitt is an excellent actor and Nolan tends to like to cast his Batvillains young (Ledger and Murphy anyway). Then there's the fact that JGL is in his new movie, Inception.
But - and this is kind of a silly but - he does look remarkably like Heath Ledger, to the extent that some people have said that he should replace Ledger as The Joker. Nolan has ruled out recasting that role but might Levitt's resemblance to the late actor from the last movie rule him out of contention?
It would be stretching it to say that audiences might be confused but I suspect Nolan wants to do something different with the next movie, not repeat The Joker or try to top it (like Shumacher and Burton always tried to do with their movies). In having an actor who looks like Heath Ledger play a villain who often behaves like The Joker, there might be an aura of over-familiarity.
But - and this is kind of a silly but - he does look remarkably like Heath Ledger, to the extent that some people have said that he should replace Ledger as The Joker. Nolan has ruled out recasting that role but might Levitt's resemblance to the late actor from the last movie rule him out of contention?
It would be stretching it to say that audiences might be confused but I suspect Nolan wants to do something different with the next movie, not repeat The Joker or try to top it (like Shumacher and Burton always tried to do with their movies). In having an actor who looks like Heath Ledger play a villain who often behaves like The Joker, there might be an aura of over-familiarity.
^I agree with the above about the Riddler. Personally, I'd like to see Bane, who (B+R notwithstanding) hasn't been used so far, and theoretically is a better antagonist than the Joker. The alternatives aren't too numerous, unless I'm missing some really obvious Batman villains or they want to redo the majors from previous, failed movies. On the other hand, we're obviously going to have Two-Face--which is no great shakes because Two-Face is too often a gimmicky character, and whose only draw to my mind is his tragic origin... that is Harvey Dent is interesting, Two-Face isn't.
As for not recasting the Joker, I guess they're not destined to do that forever after all. On balance, that's probably a good thing, because the Joker's continued existence causes Bat-decay.
I don't want to seem like I'm harping overmuch on the Nolan Batman movies, but did he actually see the same movies I did? Realist (in either the "literary realist" or the "hard science fiction" sense) is about the last word I would use to describe them.
As for not recasting the Joker, I guess they're not destined to do that forever after all. On balance, that's probably a good thing, because the Joker's continued existence causes Bat-decay.
I don't want to seem like I'm harping overmuch on the Nolan Batman movies, but did he actually see the same movies I did? Realist (in either the "literary realist" or the "hard science fiction" sense) is about the last word I would use to describe them.
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I would have envisioned Ra's al Ghul as the logical villain for a third Batman installment, it's a shame he was wasted in the reboot.
Bane might work as a second choice, given that he poses a physical and mental challenge to Batman, and shares certain traits with Ra's, for example he also identifies Bruce Wayne as Batman. He's also less of a wannabe Joker than the Riddler.
Bane might work as a second choice, given that he poses a physical and mental challenge to Batman, and shares certain traits with Ra's, for example he also identifies Bruce Wayne as Batman. He's also less of a wannabe Joker than the Riddler.
Indeed. That's the exact conclusion I reached in my long, unreadable diatribe in another thread.
Boiling down to "Ra's is a villain for a matured Batman."I don't know if I'd go that far with the Riddler... but it's definitely a valid interpretation. He's definitely second-string.
I really can't think of another major Bat-villain who fits the criteria:
1)never (or barely) used in a previous film;
2)isn't outright lame;
3)can carry the major antagonist role in a feature film; and
4)hasn't been preempted by something else in the Nolan Bat-universe.
I threw in (4) to rule out Talia al-Ghul...
Clayface? Killer Croc? They don't really satisfy criterion 3. Deadshot was originally a Bat-villain...
I had the radical idea of a heavy reimagining of Killer Moth... then I remembered he was used in Cry for Justice, which just makes me want to cry period.
I find it a little dull when so few directors/writers get power over so many franchises. I'd welcome more variety.
I guess the difference would be that the Joker is the force of chaos, while the Riddler could be portrayed as more cerebral, more like a chess player. I don't know how one would build a compelling story out of that concept, however.
Bane is a product of prison culture, so I could see that being used as an interesting angle with some relevance to the contemporary world. The Venom/drug-induced strength part of the character would probably only be employed if Batman becomes an addict as well, as in the Venom storyline in the comics (not an entirely uninteresting angle).
Another possibility is Hush, I suppose, who could possibly be teamed with the Riddler as in the comic. Here there's a personal connection to Bruce's past, but not much else of interest that I can think of.
Ra's really is the best option, and an unfortunate missed opportunity, as he is the only Batman villain with more resources than Batman himself, and with a broader agenda than standard villainy.
Nolan's weird anarchist terrorist/Saw ripoff Joker is the opposite of The Riddler, in one sense. The riddles are misleading, but they make sense. Nolan could easily follow that. The Riddler publicizes the riddles and delivers on them to manipulate the police into being where he isn't. Method to the madness. The difficulty for Nolan's brother and David Goyer is that they aren't so good on sustained logic.
Catwoman's dominatrix persona could arrow straight into Batman's tortured psyche but, despite all the emo, Nolan's Bruce Wayne isn't all that dark.
Given the poor, pitiful martyred Batman at the end of Dark Knight, though, there really isn't any villain as such for Batman to defeat. There's only the rot of Gotham. The appropriate conclusion is for Batman to die magnificently defending the decent folk against the nameless hordes of filth (in high places and low) as they emerge to destroy Gotham in a carnival of death. Which is to say, bookending back to Liam Neeson's and Tom Wilkinson's characters in Batman Begins.
All too hysterical for my taste, which would run more towards the return of The Scarecrow and The Penguin.
Catwoman's dominatrix persona could arrow straight into Batman's tortured psyche but, despite all the emo, Nolan's Bruce Wayne isn't all that dark.
Given the poor, pitiful martyred Batman at the end of Dark Knight, though, there really isn't any villain as such for Batman to defeat. There's only the rot of Gotham. The appropriate conclusion is for Batman to die magnificently defending the decent folk against the nameless hordes of filth (in high places and low) as they emerge to destroy Gotham in a carnival of death. Which is to say, bookending back to Liam Neeson's and Tom Wilkinson's characters in Batman Begins.
All too hysterical for my taste, which would run more towards the return of The Scarecrow and The Penguin.
Yeah, but I don't see where this leads thematically. You could have a series of interesting puzzles, but that doesn't make for a very compelling movie if it doesn't mean anything beyond the gratuity of solving the riddles. At any rate that doesn't seem to be Nolan's approach.
I don't follow your argument here. The end of the Dark Knight merely establishes Batman as an outlaw in the public eye, in everyone's eye except Gordon's, which is not unusual in the Batman mythos.
Nolan's Batman is an id figure, Gotham defending itself against irrational terrors with its own irrational hero. Batman is compelled by unquenchable rage. The Riddler as rational man is a thematic opposite.
If Batman murders people he is an outlaw. Voluntarily taking the rap for murder for some crazy idea that it will leave Dent's memory unstained which somehow is both good and neccessary is a kind of martyrdom. The next step is literal martyrdom.
If Batman murders people he is an outlaw. Voluntarily taking the rap for murder for some crazy idea that it will leave Dent's memory unstained which somehow is both good and neccessary is a kind of martyrdom. The next step is literal martyrdom.
Interesting...I could see an alternate Batman Begins where the villains are Carmine Falcone and the Scarecrow while Ra's role is reduced to being in the background until he's revealed in the third film. I would have shown Talia as well during Bruce's training time with the League. Not prominently but watching Bruce, maybe having a couple of discussions with him, implying her romantic interest in him.
I think it'd be interesting if the third film features multiple Bat-villains as background characters, as the gangster element has been defeated, giving rise to several costumed villains.
I dunno what story for Bats could be made out of that, but I'm just spitting out ideas.
I dunno what story for Bats could be made out of that, but I'm just spitting out ideas.
