Christopher Nolan talks Batman and Superman

[Admiral_Young]

Well the rumors seem to indicate that the villains in Batman 3 are going to be Catwoman and Riddler which would make for an interesting pair. Remember too that one of the elements in the third film will probably be Batman as a vigilante no longer being supported by the GCPD. There are a number of fascinating questions raised with the end of the second film and hopefully we'll get some satisfying answers (with probably more questions) in the third.

 

[Myasishchev]

I think it'd be interesting if the third film features multiple Bat-villains as background characters, as the gangster element has been defeated, giving rise to several costumed villains.

I dunno what story for Bats could be made out of that, but I'm just spitting out ideas.

Long Halloween showed the transition between the two pretty well, but it absolutely requires an intact Harvey Dent, who got his defining origin story in Halloween. Or at least Rachel, who would have made a good stand-in for Gilda Dent, and ideally, even realistically, it needs both to stand as a murder mystery.

TDK borrowed a bit from that, I think--the freaks coming out of the woodwork after Batman, in response to Batman.

Here's another idea for a thematically sound Batman 3 villain: a reworked Jean-Paul Valley, Azrael. The theme of inspiration perverted was touched on in the opening scenes of The Dark Knight, and could be profitably explored more fully. Thus, I'd dump some or even most of the actual Azrael, test-tube baby, St. Dumas backstory, preferring a leaner concept, summed up thus: a man taking the concept of Batman--a violent enforcer of his own moral law--beyond the moral limits Bruce Wayne put on himself.

These flaws were made patent by the Joker and the deconstructive impulse of The Dark Knight; "Sword of Azrael" or whatever you'd call it might ask the question why the limits must exist from a reconstructive direction, by asking what Batman (and by extension the impulse in society to use violence as an instrument of order and control) is in relation to Azrael (the impulse to violence run rampant, destroying the order it claims to uphold). That is, is there a significant moral line that comes with killing? Does adherence to the moral code really make Batman a hero, or is he merely a fascist streetfighter, or even just one more violent outlaw-lunatic? Is he all three?

And the most important question: who would kick a man for eating ice cream?

 

[Broccoli]

That's a neat idea, but I don't how that would work for an entire 2.5 hour movie. What would the movie do? Batman finding and stopping/have a heart-to-heart with Azrael? How can that be stretched out? I almost feel that Azrael would be a supporting character instead of the main villain of the film.

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, it doesn't have to be 2 and a half hours. Does it? Maybe that's standard now.

But that's effectively what they did for TDK, with the Joker (with Harvey Dent scenes, Rachel Dawes scenes, and the part where Bruce went to Hong Kong for reasons, in between).

I take back what I said about removing all of Jean-Paul's backstory, too. The Catholic extremist angle is actually pretty popular (cf. John Brown novels and films). I wouldn't do all the crazy super-science stuff, but the religious component is worth looking at. Given the Nolan films obsession with relevance, I sort of like the idea of replacing the Order of St. Dumas/Templar mythos with a Protestant fundamentalist background. This could make for something maybe all too relevant, and interesting.

I'd have to do some reading to determine if, say, a premillennial dispensationalist would name himself Azrael, although my general impression is that it wouldn't be much of a stretch. It's like that show, Touched by an Angel... OF DEATH; and the Revelation of John has angels, and a Horseman of Death, who could be equated to Azrael. I'm also concerned that it would stray too far from the canonical Valley (although Azrael has the advantage of being not terribly beloved, if I'm not mistaken).

I don't really have a plot in mind, but it would probably involve Two-Face actually being the prime mover--hey, he's gotta be there anyway, let us use him.

Dent exacts a lawless and arbitrary justice on both the mob and the police, while Batman, Gordon, and Azrael all try to stop him, and eventually, because of the difference in their methods, are forced to try to stop each other. Set-piece action ensues, and Azrael is an excellent physical antagonist for Bruce. A lot of options for endings appear to me, but none are obviously better than the others... the best, thematically, would be to have Two-Face killing Azrael, and sparing Bruce, based on the toss of his silver dollar, reflecting the arbitrary abuse of power Azrael and maybe Batman himself both represent in the first place. On the minus side, this leaves a Knightfall sequel undoable, but would make a good cap to the Nolan trilogy.

 

[byron lomax]

I think it'd be interesting if the third film features multiple Bat-villains as background characters, as the gangster element has been defeated, giving rise to several costumed villains.

I dunno what story for Bats could be made out of that, but I'm just spitting out ideas.

Well, one of the plot points of the third film, from what little we've heard, is that Batman is over-burdened with villains, so several could make small cameos to illustrate that: a city being taken over by freaks.


Myasishchev your ideas are interesting, but personally I wouldn't put Azrael in Nolan's trilogy. Not the biggest fan of Knightfall myself.

 

[Myasishchev]

^Oh, nor I. My memory of Knightfall and subsequent stories was that they were highly flawed. (Plus, Valley's Batman was ridiculously goofy looking; of course the Man Who Broke the Bat is the only major villain, that I can think of, whose costume showcases his back hair, so no one was immune in those days.) I always thought that Azrael, as a concept, was pretty strong, though--this was my objection to the changes to Ra's al-Ghul, not that he was always awesome (in fact a lot of late 1990s-early 2000s stories were quite lame, iirc)--but that his central concept was only weakened by the changes occasioned by the transition to the supposedly gritty-realist Nolanverse.

Ironically, I think transitioning Jean-Paul into the more "realistic," or at least the less superheroic-fantastic, setting would actually be all the better for the character. At any rate, I'm just brainstorming who could carry the prospective third installment. I don't think Dent is up to it, because Dent's story is ultimately (or at least penultimately) over.

I do like the idea of villain cameos. For some reason, I envision a montage, similar to the one opening Snyder's Watchmen. Can't think of a fitting musical piece, though.

 

[byron lomax]

Agreed - Knightfall did have good ideas, but had increasingly flawed and sloppy execution as it went along, which was for far too long anyway.

The basic concept is actually pretty good - to have Batman broken down and replaced by a "90s" hero before reclaiming his position as the city's true protector. I still like the first part of the story, and the as-yet-untraded issues that built up to it (with Batman slowly unravelling from the never-ending onslought of villains). And Azrael is a pretty interesting concept, but it got lost in the general mediocrity of that era.

 

[Broccoli]

Well, it doesn't have to be 2 and a half hours. Does it? Maybe that's standard now.

True...I'm just going by the running time of the previous two. I would assume Nolan would try to match it for a third movie.

I don't really have a plot in mind, but it would probably involve Two-Face actually being the prime mover--hey, he's gotta be there anyway, let us use him.

A problem with that. Two-Face is dead.

 

[Trent Roman]

Well, one of the plot points of the third film, from what little we've heard, is that Batman is over-burdened with villains, so several could make small cameos to illustrate that: a city being taken over by freaks.

Could work. Maybe Batman could beat up on one of the cheesier villains in his rogues gallery at the beginning of the film, much as he did Scarecrow in Dark Knight (but have them be just some nutter in a bad costume). Then he can go home to Alfred and complain, "Never thought I'd say this, but I was happier when the crazies were dressing up like me instead of him."

Hmm. Maybe that could be a way to work in a homage to the Joker without actually having him in it--a bit villain inspired by him, like Harley Quinn or a contemporary version of the Jokerz from Batman Beyond (presented as Batman mopping up the remnants of Joker's crew).

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Admiral_Young]

I actually really like the idea of an anti-Batman forming in the guise of Azeral with the St. Dumas programming (or maybe it's just a delusion in Jean-Paul's head) as well as the cult "The Sons of Batman" from Miller's "Dark Knight Returns" spiraling out from the multi-Batman. Meanwhile a costumed psycho calling himself Black Mask has emerged from the abyss of the Gotham mob scene uniting the fractured families that were decimated by Harvey Dent and Batman's crusade against them in the third movie forcing Batman to take on the cruel and cunning new mob boss. Meanwhile Bruce Wayne has started dating socialite Selina Kyle who unbeknown to him has ties to the Falcone mob family and also is one of the world's most feared cat burglars. That'd be my attempt at writing the final Nolan Batman film.

 

[Myasishchev]

Well, it doesn't have to be 2 and a half hours. Does it? Maybe that's standard now.

True...I'm just going by the running time of the previous two. I would assume Nolan would try to match it for a third movie.

I don't really have a plot in mind, but it would probably involve Two-Face actually being the prime mover--hey, he's gotta be there anyway, let us use him.

A problem with that. Two-Face is dead.

Oh, wow. You know, I usually get annoyed when people don't see the blinding obvious just because it isn't spelled out explicitly for them, but for some reason I thought Dent lived. And I can't tell whether I always thought that, or just forgot. I hope it's the latter, because that's marginally less stupid.

The "they'll hunt him" ending doesn't make sense, if Dent had lived ("Batman? It was totally me that killed those guys.") That's my dumbass mistake for the month.

I actually really like the idea of an anti-Batman forming in the guise of Azeral with the St. Dumas programming (or maybe it's just a delusion in Jean-Paul's head) as well as the cult "The Sons of Batman" from Miller's "Dark Knight Returns" spiraling out from the multi-Batman. Meanwhile a costumed psycho calling himself Black Mask has emerged from the abyss of the Gotham mob scene uniting the fractured families that were decimated by Harvey Dent and Batman's crusade against them in the third movie forcing Batman to take on the cruel and cunning new mob boss.

Black Mask works.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There's dead then there's comic book/Soap Opera dead.

 

[Broccoli]

There's dead then there's comic book/Soap Opera dead.

And then there is Nolan's "He's dead, because we are doing this realistically dead! So there!!!"

Then again, who knows? They can always retcon it (in Nolan's Superman movie, maybe Superboy can punch a wall), but from interviews and whatnot, Nolan is pretty sure that his Two-Face is a goner.

 

[flemm]

I tend to agree that we won't see Two-Face for the reasons cited above: (1) he is apparently deceased and (2) Harvey Dent becoming Two-Face is interesting, but Two-Face himself is not, so the character has already essentially been milked for all he is worth.

The "Batman is overwhelmed with villains" angle reminds me a bit of what happens in Knightfall after Bane breaks everyone out of the asylum, so I guess we might see a bit of a "Broken Bat" type of storyline where the character is pushed to the limit of his endurance.

 

[Myasishchev]

I think what it came from was that watching Dark Knight I mistook Batman moving Dent's face to the nice-looking side for Dent moving himself.

Hey, this was the same movie that had Rachel Dawes survive a fifteen story plunge.

Edit: Dent's death scene, after reviewing the tape, also comes across as kinda messed up--Batman does not appear to have confirmed Harvey's dead, but he casually moves the neck of a fall victim.

"And then there was that time Batman straight-up murdered an unarmed man by shoving a bomb down his pants and smiling about it."

 

[Nerys Myk]

Prof. Hugo Strange is a good villian if they want to go psychological.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I don't get what hollywood's fascination is with killing off villains...at least the Joker was we can assume taken into custody and incarcerated in Arkham or Blackgate. Killing off villains even if the hero isn't responsible for the killing in the first place just comes across as silly. I don't see what's wrong with them being take into custody and given a trial and put into Arkham or in the Marvel Universe The Vault or whatever they're using right now. I mean in the Spider-Man films before the reboot was declared, Norman was killed (which of course happens in the comics but he comes back), Doctor Octopus was inexplicably killed in a massive explosion in an attempt to redeem himself which is all fine and good but that means you couldn't use that character again. Perhaps it just stems from the filmmakers thinking that because these characters have so many villains in their rouges gallery they don't have to feel the need on bringing the old ones back. Also I'll give "The Dark Knight" lots of credit since none of the villains learned or were shown Batman's identity breaking another long standing annoying tradition of this occurrence in a superhero film (particularly the Batman franchise).

As for Rachel surviving that fall I will agree with you that was very implausible but in fairness Bruce did break her fall and took the blunt of the blow himself inside of his reinforced armor which is supposed to have some kind of shock protection.

 

[Captaindemotion]

More from Nolan here, but he's not giving away an awful lot.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/45451

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yeah we probably won't get any major Batman 3 news until either comic con or after it. Right now he's focused on promoting "Inception" which I'm excited for.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ God yeah, it looks incredible