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Christians - Does This Upset You?

I dunno, I think the freedom to ridicule is at its greatest in most North Atlantic countries, wouldn't you say?

Indeed I would. But that's not the point.

Neroon's post suggested that there is or should be a difference between politics (which is not and has never been above ridicule) and religion (which has been and should be above ridicule). In my opinion, neither of these claims is true.

On the one hand, there was a time when political ridicule was not tolerated either. Lèse majesté was a serious crime in most Western jurisdictions until the 19th century. And it remains a crime to insult heads of state in many countries today--to say nothing of the fact that even serious criticism of ruling parties and dominant ideologies is still not tolerated in many parts of the world.

On the other hand, as I said, historically, people began to express ridicule for religion as soon as they were free to do so--that is to say, as soon as they could do so without fear of being punished with the stake and the wheel.

What's more, this freedom was not some kind of free gift from benevolent Christian governments to the citizens of the Christian West. It was obtained only after a long period of often-violent political struggle, in which many lives were lost.

It should also be noted that this process was assisted by the fracturing of the Latin Church, the rise of alternative Christianities, and the inability of any one confession to maintain its hegemony. Protestants and Catholics felt free to ridicule each other's beliefs long before either of them were compelled to tolerate the ridicule of the irreligious.

Not too long ago, for example, I translated a satirical French Counter-Enlightenment poem, An Epistle of the Devil to M. de Voltaire, whose author heaped scorn on the teachings of the philosophes, not least because he identified them with Protestantism. The poem pretends to be a letter from the Devil to his beloved son in whom He is well pleased, praising Voltaire for leading so many into damnation. It was a big hit in conservative Catholic circles, and went through numerous editions.

Universalizing religions, like all ruling ideologies, have only tolerated ridicule when forced to do so--that is to say, when they cease to be ruling ideologies. We can only hope that other parts of the world--particularly the Muslim world--will soon pass through a similar process of Enlightenment.

Frankly, the impression I get from many people who raise points like yours is that the irreligious should be grateful to the religious for not persecuting them--that people like me should thank people like you for not killing and imprisoning us, and that we should reward you for your forbearance by showing at least outward respect for your beliefs.
 
As I previous pointed out there is one thing that Hell Pizza did apologise for

In November 2008, while under management from Tasman Foods, Hell Pizza New Zealand apologised for an advertisement featuring skeletal remains of Sir Edmund Hillary, Heath Ledger, and the Queen Mother, dancing on gravestones. The apology was to Hillary's family, which complained the ad was in "extremely poor taste". The ad was withdrawn from the company website on 3 November

It would seem to me that New Zealanders might get more upset by what they see as an offense against their greatest hero, Sir Edmund Hillary, than they are about an offense against Jesus.
 
first I have to get a franchise license for Fat Ho burgers (want to set that one up across the street from Lucky Boy), now I have to buy a license for Hell Pizza (wonder if i can get it set up next to walk-in-wills on Carlisle?), Albuquerque is in for one Seph fueled, finger-licking good time
 
Of people that even bother claiming to believe anymore, relatively few are completely devout. I haven't looked back in the posts, but I'd be surprised if anybody on this board was offended at all.

I don't believe in God. I believe that Jesus lived, and He did Very Great Things, but not that he was a supernatural being. I believe that Somewhere Far Beyond Our Reality, out in the quasars far beyond where we can see, there may be beings of power we can't even comprehend and will never know about simply because they're so far away. But they never came here and impregnated our women, and if they did it wasn't to spread The Good Word.
 
As I previous pointed out there is one thing that Hell Pizza did apologise for

In November 2008, while under management from Tasman Foods, Hell Pizza New Zealand apologised for an advertisement featuring skeletal remains of Sir Edmund Hillary, Heath Ledger, and the Queen Mother, dancing on gravestones. The apology was to Hillary's family, which complained the ad was in "extremely poor taste". The ad was withdrawn from the company website on 3 November
It would seem to me that New Zealanders might get more upset by what they see as an offense against their greatest hero, Sir Edmund Hillary, than they are about an offense against Jesus.

See based on that I would never buy their pizza. I am prone to boycotting stuff and with Ledger being so recently dead I would think, you guys are just total dickwads and your pizza can go fuck itself. I would have had an immediate reaction to that crassness and that would be it. I haven't bought anything from Cotton On since their repulsive Cotton On Kids onesies and 10 years from now I will still not be buying from them even though it will be a long past event and probably totally new people in charge of it. I just like boycotting stuff, lol. And I don't care about apologies either.
 
So then, should I, as an American, be "bitterly amused" or offended at all the silly advertising that trivializes images of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and other American symbols on President's Day? Or are you one of those who believe that Christians should have a special exemption?
There's a significant difference between the two categories. The one involves political figures which by tradition have always been ridiculed. The other focuses upon the central figure of a religion based upon a close spiritual relationship with the central divinity.
Which suggests that religion should have special privileges; I don't think that it should.
I'm not necessarily saying that it should. This is just pointing out that there is a much deeper wound when you make an intimately religious figure the target as opposed to merely admired political figures. Understanding the rationale behind the reactions is a major step towards preventing much of the crap that infests our world.
 
On the other hand, as I said, historically, people began to express ridicule for religion as soon as they were free to do so--that is to say, as soon as they could do so without fear of being punished with the stake and the wheel.

Well, even before then really. Although I guess when they're not free to do so it becomes protest more than ridicule...

Not too long ago, for example, I translated a satirical French Counter-Enlightenment poem, An Epistle of the Devil to M. de Voltaire, whose author heaped scorn on the teachings of the philosophes, not least because he identified them with Protestantism. The poem pretends to be a letter from the Devil to his beloved son in whom He is well pleased, praising Voltaire for leading so many into damnation. It was a big hit in conservative Catholic circles, and went through numerous editions.

Hmm, sounds like C.S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters had something of a more inflammatory ancestor. :devil:

Frankly, the impression I get from many people who raise points like yours is that the irreligious should be grateful to the religious for not persecuting them--that people like me should thank people like you for not killing and imprisoning us, and that we should reward you for your forbearance by showing at least outward respect for your beliefs.

I'm... not exactly sure how to respond to this. (Is there an "uncomfortable" smiley?) I guess, um... that's not how I mean it? Or I take it as a sign of progress that we don't kill or imprison people for their belief/lack thereof?

Though I will say I think showing outward respect - or at least not derision - for people's beliefs/lack thereof (in public?) is generally laudable and something everybody "should" do.

Which suggests that religion should have special privileges; I don't think that it should.
I'm not necessarily saying that it should. This is just pointing out that there is a much deeper wound when you make an intimately religious figure the target as opposed to merely admired political figures. Understanding the rationale behind the reactions is a major step towards preventing much of the crap that infests our world.

Agreed. Why should be shocked that people are offended when you insult (in their mind at least) somebody as dear and beloved as a parent or child?
 
^So just because a minority of Christians slam Muslims it's all right to slam all Christians? Not what I'd call a mature attitude. As far as I'm concerned the advert could have been a deliberate insult to any belief system and it would be equally juvenile.

And did I say that? :rolleyes:

The way I understood your comment, yes, hence my reply. I thought that would be obvious, but I won't bother using the rolleyes smiley.
 
So then, should I, as an American, be "bitterly amused" or offended at all the silly advertising that trivializes images of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and other American symbols on President's Day? Or are you one of those who believe that Christians should have a special exemption?

I don't know about you, but there's stuff like that that crosses the line in my book, too--that is, if it goes in the direction of dishonoring the tragedies and sacrifices we have in our history. Simply caricaturing a political figure doesn't bother me. But there are certain things that I get very irritated with.
Me, too. But expressing irritation and trying to suppress what people do are two different things.

There's a significant difference between the two categories. The one involves political figures which by tradition have always been ridiculed. The other focuses upon the central figure of a religion based upon a close spiritual relationship with the central divinity.
Which suggests that religion should have special privileges; I don't think that it should.
I'm not necessarily saying that it should. This is just pointing out that there is a much deeper wound when you make an intimately religious figure the target as opposed to merely admired political figures. Understanding the rationale behind the reactions is a major step towards preventing much of the crap that infests our world.
Aside from the fact that there's no "target" here-- just some humorous advertising-- we have people here saying precisely that religion should have special privileges and exemptions. This is essentially, aside from the so-far less-violent reaction, the same as all that "image of Mohammad" nonsense that we've had.
 
So then, should I, as an American, be "bitterly amused" or offended at all the silly advertising that trivializes images of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and other American symbols on President's Day? Or are you one of those who believe that Christians should have a special exemption?

I don't know about you, but there's stuff like that that crosses the line in my book, too--that is, if it goes in the direction of dishonoring the tragedies and sacrifices we have in our history. Simply caricaturing a political figure doesn't bother me. But there are certain things that I get very irritated with.
Me, too. But expressing irritation and trying to suppress what people do are two different things.

I don't think it's unconscionable suppression for me to decide that someone or something is not worth receiving my money. I think we have every right to vote with our pocketbooks. If a company ticks off enough people that it hits their bottom line, it's their own fault for being stupid and not reading their potential customers.
 
^ And so we shall.

This pizza does have quite the name, though. It may be more accurate than its makers at first might realize... :lol:
 
I don't know about you, but there's stuff like that that crosses the line in my book, too--that is, if it goes in the direction of dishonoring the tragedies and sacrifices we have in our history. Simply caricaturing a political figure doesn't bother me. But there are certain things that I get very irritated with.
Me, too. But expressing irritation and trying to suppress what people do are two different things.

I don't think it's unconscionable suppression for me to decide that someone or something is not worth receiving my money. I think we have every right to vote with our pocketbooks. If a company ticks off enough people that it hits their bottom line, it's their own fault for being stupid and not reading their potential customers.

I would be unlikely to campaign against something I objected to but I do like voting with my own pocket. Sometimes I write a letter telling a company why I'm not buying their stuff. I certainly don't care if other people feel or act differently.
 
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