Christian faith in TrekLit?

[captcalhoun]

"I have a question, sir."
"Yes Data, what is it?"
"What is death?"
"Oh, is that all? Oh, Data, you're asking probably the most difficult of all questions. Some see it as a changing into an indestructible form, forever unchanging; they believe that the purpose of the entire universe is to maintain that form in an earth-like garden which will give delight and pleasure through all eternity. On the other hand, there are those who hold to the idea of our blinking into nothingness. That all of our experiences and hopes and dreams, merely a delusion."
"Which do you believe, sir?"
"Considering the marvelous complexity of the universe, its clockwork perfection, its balances of this against that, matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension, I believe that our existence must be more than either of these philosophies. That what we are goes beyond Euclidean or other "practical" measuring systems, and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality."

 

[Janos]

That's a pretty cool quote. It reinforces Picard's spirtiuality and reinforces his lack of religiousity. That said, it does not support the argument that Earth as a while has outgrown religion.

 

[Janos]

In ENT's Cold Front, Archer mentions several "Earth religions" which would point to religions still being around ST era. I found that info here. They just aren't heavily referenced in TOS and TNG, but the views on faith/religion of the Captains (and others) are peppered into a few stories.

The ENT quotes:

MANTOOS: It represents the continuing cycle of creation.
PHLOX: It's not unlike the Hindu faith, Commander. They also believe that the universe goes through repeated cycles of rebirth.
ARCHER: I didn't realize you were familiar with Earth religions, Doctor.
PHLOX: Oh, yes. In fact, while I was there I made it a point to study a number of them. I spent two weeks at a Tibetan monastery where I learned to sing chords with the high lamas. I attended Mass at Saint Peter's Square. I was even allowed to observe the Tal-Shanar at the Vulcan consulate.
SONSORRA: I understand Vulcans are a deeply spiritual people.
T'POL: Our beliefs are based on logic and the pursuit of clarity.
SONSORRA: Do you follow a particular faith, Captain?
ARCHER: I guess you could say I try to keep an open mind.
MANTOOS: Many who see the Great Plume are often inspired by it. Perhaps you will be, too.

As I noted earlier, I do remember (just not from where) the "outgrown" type language re: religion, but for some reason my takeaway was that in ST era that Eart outgrew religious differences not religion totally.

Also, Archer's portrayal above (not committing to one Earth religion) seems to be consistent how other leading TV trek Captains have been portrayed. In practice they would appear to be agnostic, but perhaps the intent is for a open-minded athiest? I don't know. But in story terms it would alienate many fans if it came out that X Captain followed Y faith. Its easier to leave it up to readers' imaginations (so that if you JLP is an agnostic or a Catholic, you may both be right, but neither has been or will be confirmed in TV/film/lir). In the end, this approach keeps all fans relatively happy with Captains not taking a religious "side" per se and allows writers to explore religious issues/themes through the various species encountered.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Janos, all the ENT quote does is show us what United Earth of the 22nd century was like--that there was at least some religious practice. We don't know how many adherents or how those numbers were trending. Nor do we know whether that was mainstream or not; only that Phlox considered it important to see, and that Archer had not completely closed his mind the way Picard seems to have. So, I think that things can still be taken either way, though I think we at least have a fair degree of evidence that the 22nd-century situation is not necessarily the same as the 23rd and especially 24th century.

At least for the purposes of my own fanfic, I have a steady decline for various reasons that must remain undisclosed in this forum, from the 21st through 24th century.

 

[Janos]

Janos, all the ENT quote does is show us what United Earth of the 22nd century was like--that there was at least some religious practice. We don't know how many adherents or how those numbers were trending. Nor do we know whether that was mainstream or not; only that Phlox considered it important to see, and that Archer had not completely closed his mind the way Picard seems to have. So, I think that things can still be taken either way, though I think we at least have a fair degree of evidence that the 22nd-century situation is not necessarily the same as the 23rd and especially 24th century.

I do agree that in terms of TOS and TNG era TV all we have to go by is what we saw in those episodes about the state of religious practice in those eras. It was fairly ambigous about the state of Earth in terms of religiousity but we do learn about some perspectives on faith through the Captains and others. I do think that both Archer and Picard are open to believing something is out there, as per previous quotes, but Picard seems more spiritual / about faith as opposed to prescibing to any organized religion. Archer's quote is more open-ended than Pucard's. I just don't know what he's open-minded. - to faith or religion, I don't know. For the reasons I stated earlier I believe ST's TPTB kept the question of Earth-based religion up to viewers to interpret and made their Captains seem to be accepting/tolerant of other species' faith and cultures.

In the end, there isn't enough "proof" in TOS or TNG era to determine to what extend if any religion is practiced on Earth period (based on what I've read here, what I've seen on the broader internet, and from what I recall of the TV shows). Those that wish to believe that Earth outgrew religion can believe so as can those that believe that religions are still practiced on Earth. Neither is right (or wrong I guess) in so much there is not an overwhelming body of proof to bolster either argument using canon. That said, we do have a better sense of what some of the various Captains think of "faith" if not "religion". And, those are personal views of the Captains and not any kind of declaration of what is happening on Earth.

Is it "some" religion practiced on Earth in Archer's time? No idea. Religion could be so far on the fringe and in decline in that era that it is seen as cults where the mainstream is pretty much agnostic or athiest or it could be "some" as you noted where Earth religions have declined, but still occupy a part or "some" of the mainstream , but not like it is now or religion could have exploded in interest and grew due to a more accepting society where religious differences no longer lead to violence (and maybe there are other "or" scenarios too). We don't know which is true b/c, in my view, as I believe it was deliberately not covered b/c organized religion and faith are topics where all sides are fervent in their opinions (emphasis added).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Personally, I don't think it has to be the same answer, as to the situation on Earth, in the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th centuries. I can tell you that personally, I would tackle it very differently if I were writing for each of those three time periods, and even a different take again if I were writing about World War III, the Post-Atomic Horror, and the period shortly thereafter up to and right after First Contact.

 

[Janos]

Personally, I don't think it has to be the same answer, as to the situation on Earth, in the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th centuries.

I do agree it doesn't have to be same for each era. However, there is no established canon pointing to which direction things were going in terms of organized religion. I think those scenarios I posed probably can be determined for each era, but its up to our respective imaginations anyway as to which direction this all was going.

That's all I've been saying this whole thread:

- no significant proof Picard is Christian
- no significant proof that Earth outgrew religion

I'm making both sides unhappy.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I think the better take would be that religion is still practiced, but more as a philosophical approach instead of trying to save the world and punish the infidels, i.e., 23rd Century Christians hew more to the "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do unto others..." and less "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

It could be interesting exploring just how much of Islam would survive under this scenario...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think the better take would be that religion is still practiced, but more as a philosophical approach instead of trying to save the world and punish the infidels, i.e., 23rd Century Christians hew more to the "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do unto others..." and less "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

Have you ever read what C.S. Lewis had to say on the latter subject? Either in Mere Christianity, or in allegorical form in The Last Battle. Some despise him for it (and I CANNOT WAIT to see what happens if/when the movie is made of that book--can we say CON-TRO-VER-SY? VERY needed public conversation in my opinion...), but those two things don't have to be in the slightest bit contradictory. Unfortunately, people's behavior and interpretation does not always reflect that.



As for Islam, I see no reason why, at the very least, Sufism could not survive in reasonably unaltered form. Other forms might survive too, if the moderate believers ultimately purge the extremists from their ranks.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Have you ever read what C.S. Lewis had to say on the latter subject?

I've read two of his books (Mere Christianity, The Great Divorce) and think him rather unimpressive. I don't understand why he's regarded so highly.

 

[JoeZhang]

I think the better take would be that religion is still practiced, but more as a philosophical approach instead of trying to save the world and punish the infidels, i.e., 23rd Century Christians hew more to the "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do unto others..." and less "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

Have you ever read what C.S. Lewis had to say on the latter subject? Either in Mere Christianity, or in allegorical form in The Last Battle. Some despise him for it (and I CANNOT WAIT to see what happens if/when the movie is made of that book--can we say CON-TRO-VER-SY? VERY needed public conversation in my opinion...), but those two things don't have to be in the slightest bit contradictory. Unfortunately, people's behavior and interpretation does not always reflect that.
.

You mean that the arguments about "works" or "faith" (for example, Susan being left behind when Jesus-lion takes everyone away to his special country)?

 

[Janos]

I think the better take would be that religion is still practiced, but more as a philosophical approach instead of trying to save the world and punish the infidels, i.e., 23rd Century Christians hew more to the "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do unto others..." and less "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No man comes to the Father but by Me."

Do you mean that the world would have moved away from theocracies in the future and that practiced religion (as opposed to just faith) is more of a personal choice as opposed to how one's state/country is run?

When you say philosophy it makes it seem like the practiced part, which in many ways is at the root of organized religion, is really up to each person which, to me, is more an argument for agnosticism (sp?) as opposed to being part of an organized religion.

In the future, as I have indicated, the way I believe it to be (b/c ST left it open-ended enough) is likely religions in organized form are still practiced and agnostics and athiests are also around, but religious differences no longer lead to bloodshed and there are no more theocracies.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Yeah, that sounds about right.

 

[Janos]

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

You mean that the arguments about "works" or "faith" (for example, Susan being left behind when Jesus-lion takes everyone away to his special country)?

Actually, I was thinking about the fate of Emeth. I think that when people really realize what's going on here, it's going to ignite a huge debate, because that's very different from the view that you hear from the "loudest mouths" of Christianity (and the loudest voices against Christianity).