I just watched "Children of Time". I think it was an excellent episode. Anyone have any thoughts?
Children of Time
- Thread starter Josh_Lyman
- Start date
I have to say I really loved this episode, in particular what could be called the 'B story' : Kira's time with Odo.
"You've changed so much Odo."
"I supposed I have changed. And the other Odo will change too, if you're patient with him."
I think the situation was depicted very plausably. I also sympathised with Odo's decision to save Kira. That bit really added 'oomf' to the episode.
"You've changed so much Odo."
"I supposed I have changed. And the other Odo will change too, if you're patient with him."
I think the situation was depicted very plausably. I also sympathised with Odo's decision to save Kira. That bit really added 'oomf' to the episode.
The twist of Odo saving Kira certainly was unexpected. Not the usual "we have to be good" kind of twist that Star Trek usually opts for.
Hence the 'oomf'.
One of the best DS9s, maybe the best that season. As usual, the time-travel was a bit easy and contrived, but DS9 used time-travel brilliantly on a human, dramatic level. It was great to see a thawed-out Odo. What a weird moment and decision to have to make... when they're standing there watching all their descendants planting (?) crops knowing they will never even have ever existed, tomorrow. Great moment when Sisko has his crew pitch in.
The Prophets, were they confused?
The Prophets, were they confused?
Would have been great had it not been for Sisko's choice to stay which I found stupid back then and which still bugs me today. I love the part about what Odo does (as was mentioned earlier in the thread) but I do not for one moment buy that a) Sisko would agree to stay and b) that there isn't a single soul on the Defiant who'd disagree with stranding on the planet.
In reference to a): Sisko was really into his role as Emissary at this point. He was very much aware of his part in the Dominion war, and I don't see how he could put the lives of the people on that planet above the lives of billions of Federation and Bajoran citizens in light of the war. I just do not buy it.
In reference to b): Sisko's in command but I don't see how he could order a mission like this. One person disagreeing and demanding to go back should be enough to put off the entire thing. And I really can't imagine there not even being one single sould who'd want to go back.
Had it not been for Sisko's decision this would have been excellent IMHO. The way it is it just bothers me and destroys a lot of character work that came before that.
In reference to a): Sisko was really into his role as Emissary at this point. He was very much aware of his part in the Dominion war, and I don't see how he could put the lives of the people on that planet above the lives of billions of Federation and Bajoran citizens in light of the war. I just do not buy it.
In reference to b): Sisko's in command but I don't see how he could order a mission like this. One person disagreeing and demanding to go back should be enough to put off the entire thing. And I really can't imagine there not even being one single sould who'd want to go back.
Had it not been for Sisko's decision this would have been excellent IMHO. The way it is it just bothers me and destroys a lot of character work that came before that.
I thought this was an excellent episode, but the ending is soo F'd up to me. It is still an excellent episode in my book.
1.) Technically, even if the crew didn't agree, it's still the Captain's choice.
2.) As Starfleet Officers they may have felt that if they left they'd be willingly murdering the people that lived there. They may have caused them to decide to stay because if they left they wouldn't be holding up the Starfleet ideal or some Starfleet answer.
Re. 1.) I wonder if it would really be the Captain's choice in this case. I'd agree if this were part of Starfleet's effort in the Dominion war and getting them stranded was the only way to complete the mission. But they have no mission from Starfleet here. And the choice is a really, really tough one and highly debatable IMHO. So would he REALLY have the right to strand them in this case?
Re. 2.) I still think there would have been at least 1 who wouldn't have wanted to stay. And I think it wouldn't fit Sisko's character if he simply ignored that one opinion in such a case. But then I can't prove it since we only get to see the major character's who're all game.
A general problem I have here is the 'dying' issue. It makes for an interesting discussion but isn't really touched upon in the episode IIRC. These people don't die. They cease to exist. Some may call that hair splitting but what's important to me (among other things) is the fact that they most definitely have none of the suffering to expect that many people fear when they think of dying (I sometimes think that's actually what people fear most rather than death itself).
Again, I think the backdrop's what's important, it's what's going on between the Dominion and the Federation, it's what's happening to Bajor. All that is rendered unimportant in my eyes which just bothers me. There are most definitely people THERE suffering and dying. And Sisko and his people IMHO are a key factor in reducing the number of lives lost and the suffering.
I like the episode and I understand the decision to stay, but I don't think I could have agreed with it.
But I do like how, as was previously mentioned, Odo threw a wrench in the star trek formula. He was "selfish" enough to say I want a chance with Kira and I want her to live, so I am going to make it so all these people never existed..
That's guts...
But I do like how, as was previously mentioned, Odo threw a wrench in the star trek formula. He was "selfish" enough to say I want a chance with Kira and I want her to live, so I am going to make it so all these people never existed..
That's guts...
Sisko's decision makes the episode, and I'll go so far as to say that anyone labeling it "stupid" has no heart. Sisko looked at these very real (at that moment) people struggling to get crops planted in a sort of defiance of the bizarre circumstances that were about to cancel out their entire lives, every thought, every feeling, every hope, apparently making a mockery of their existences and those of their ancestors there, and opted for supporting his and their "grandchildren". They're choosing life no matter what insane technological snafu comes along to cancel it out, in an unceremonious and humiliating way.
They did deal with the fact that they wouldn't suffer as someone would being killed. Much of it is left to the viewer to mull over-- it's not all spelled out. But they definitely mean for the viewer to think about what never having existed might mean, if it ends up having any meaning, and if it doesn't, that might be the most frightening aspect of all this....
They did deal with the fact that they wouldn't suffer as someone would being killed. Much of it is left to the viewer to mull over-- it's not all spelled out. But they definitely mean for the viewer to think about what never having existed might mean, if it ends up having any meaning, and if it doesn't, that might be the most frightening aspect of all this....
I thought the episode was out of place considereing everything else going on. I also agree with it being weird that Sisko was willing to stay.
I'd say 'breaks' is more like it ;-).
Errr, riiiight....
And what about the very real struggle of the people of the Federation and the Bajorans? It only works out if you simply forget about that which I think is the mistake the writers made. It's pure romanticism IMHO.
It was "bizarre circumstances" and an "insane technological snafu" that brought about the entire situation in the first place. If you argue along those lines you'll end up finding those people shouldn't exist in the first place since they're merely the result of a freak accident. But that would probably be heartless, wouldn't it?
It's clearly not an easy decision. I don't think anybody's questioning that. And it's great that the viewer can decide for himself. However, I think it's a pitty that the path the writers picked here is a) the typical Star Trek one and that it b) IMHO defies much of what we learned about the characters over the past five years.
Justtoyourleft,
I am curious to know how you think it would defy the characters history?
It is an odd decision that I am not sure I would agree with if I were there.
However I don't think it was typical star trek solution. Odo making such a "selfish" decision for the woman he loves and for himself is IMO off the beaten trek path...
I am curious to know how you think it would defy the characters history?
It is an odd decision that I am not sure I would agree with if I were there.
However I don't think it was typical star trek solution. Odo making such a "selfish" decision for the woman he loves and for himself is IMO off the beaten trek path...
^
Let me be a bit more specific about the characters since I'm mainly referring to Sisko when I say characterization was off IMHO.
I actually really like Kira's reaction because in my view it fits perfectly with the way she views herself and the world.
I can see Worf going along with the plan as well. He almost left DS9 right in the beginning in S4 and even in S5 he's arguably still in the process of 'fitting in'. And he's got a thing for honor and glory and romantic things like those so I think it works on that level. I also think he's view of the afterlife would tell him that ceasing to exist will not get you into Sto'Vo'kor ;-).
I also think Odo's choices here are great even if it's 200+ Odo. They do indeed go against the typical Trek views or Trek solutions and I do appreciate that.
I'll also came close but not close enough to believing Miles would stay. He's a family man, and I think family history is important to him. But I just can't seeing leaving Keiko and the kids behind even for this. But I'll say I can more easily view this as something where your mileage may vary.
As mentioned, the real problem for me is with Sisko. Season 5 in my eyes is where his character came into focus immensely. Think of these events:
- Sisko reveals the Martok as the Changeling in "Apocalypse Rising" and manages to start a process of reconciliation with the Klingons.
- He provides Starfleet with a major war prize by bringing back "The Ship".
- He almost loses Jake in "Nor the Battle to the Strong". This episode once again reveals his strong ties with his son.
- "Rapture" holds what is probably the most important moment in the season for Sisko in many ways. THIS is where he TRULY accepts his role as Emissary. He's granted incredible visions for which he is willing to die if it will save the Federation and Bajor. This is a turning point IMHO for the character.
- "For the Uniform" shows just how important loyalty and the oath to Starfleet and the Federation is to Sisko. Arguably, he takes it overboard because he can't accept betrayal where these things are concerned.
- "In Purgatory's Shadow / By Inferno's Light" sees the beginning of the Dominion war. And Sisko is on the VERY FRONT LINE at this point. Sisko, his crew and DS9 will clearly be decisive in winning the war, and Sisko is definitely aware of that. If he fails, the Federation and Bajor may fall and people close to him including his own son may die. But he clearly accepts the challenge.
Now, I simply CANNOT see Sisko making the choice he does in "Children of Time" after ALL OF THIS. It just smacks in the face of all that development and basically stamps the war, Bajor, the Prophets, Sisko's role as the Emissary, his son, and whatever I may be forgetting worthless in my view.
Really, I suppose it's a problem of timing. Had this taken place, say, in season 3 or maybe, maybe even 4 it would have been ok. But here? No, it just doesn't work for me. I hope that will make it a bit clearer where I'm coming from.
Let me be a bit more specific about the characters since I'm mainly referring to Sisko when I say characterization was off IMHO.
I actually really like Kira's reaction because in my view it fits perfectly with the way she views herself and the world.
I can see Worf going along with the plan as well. He almost left DS9 right in the beginning in S4 and even in S5 he's arguably still in the process of 'fitting in'. And he's got a thing for honor and glory and romantic things like those so I think it works on that level. I also think he's view of the afterlife would tell him that ceasing to exist will not get you into Sto'Vo'kor ;-).
I also think Odo's choices here are great even if it's 200+ Odo. They do indeed go against the typical Trek views or Trek solutions and I do appreciate that.
I'll also came close but not close enough to believing Miles would stay. He's a family man, and I think family history is important to him. But I just can't seeing leaving Keiko and the kids behind even for this. But I'll say I can more easily view this as something where your mileage may vary.
As mentioned, the real problem for me is with Sisko. Season 5 in my eyes is where his character came into focus immensely. Think of these events:
- Sisko reveals the Martok as the Changeling in "Apocalypse Rising" and manages to start a process of reconciliation with the Klingons.
- He provides Starfleet with a major war prize by bringing back "The Ship".
- He almost loses Jake in "Nor the Battle to the Strong". This episode once again reveals his strong ties with his son.
- "Rapture" holds what is probably the most important moment in the season for Sisko in many ways. THIS is where he TRULY accepts his role as Emissary. He's granted incredible visions for which he is willing to die if it will save the Federation and Bajor. This is a turning point IMHO for the character.
- "For the Uniform" shows just how important loyalty and the oath to Starfleet and the Federation is to Sisko. Arguably, he takes it overboard because he can't accept betrayal where these things are concerned.
- "In Purgatory's Shadow / By Inferno's Light" sees the beginning of the Dominion war. And Sisko is on the VERY FRONT LINE at this point. Sisko, his crew and DS9 will clearly be decisive in winning the war, and Sisko is definitely aware of that. If he fails, the Federation and Bajor may fall and people close to him including his own son may die. But he clearly accepts the challenge.
Now, I simply CANNOT see Sisko making the choice he does in "Children of Time" after ALL OF THIS. It just smacks in the face of all that development and basically stamps the war, Bajor, the Prophets, Sisko's role as the Emissary, his son, and whatever I may be forgetting worthless in my view.
Really, I suppose it's a problem of timing. Had this taken place, say, in season 3 or maybe, maybe even 4 it would have been ok. But here? No, it just doesn't work for me. I hope that will make it a bit clearer where I'm coming from.
Similar threads
