Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

[Yeoman Basha]

Like you said, they went overboard with it. A far more suitable way would be just to have Kirk violating the Prime Directive to rescue people who would have died. That would have been a better characterization of Kirk, someone willing to ignore the rules to do what he believes is right as opposed to the bad boy punk who doesn't believe rules should apply to him.

Well, violating the Prime Directive is something that Kirk never outgrew. Kirk Prime was doing it all the time. So to give Kirk that coming-of-age story arc, his immaturity had to go beyond just breaking the Prime Directive.

But yes, we're in agreement that they went overboard with the immaturity angle in the early part of STID. I mean, Kirk hardly does anything right in the first third of the film.

Having said that, I'm very glad that the writers tried to give Kirk a strong story arc, and the whole coming-of-age angle was a good one for him. I also don't blame Pine at all, as I think he did a really great job with what he was given. It was just...the writers laid it on a bit too thick at the beginning.

 

[Yeoman Basha]

At the beginning of STID, the writers definitely regressed Kirk's character because they wanted to give him the story arc of re-earning the captain's chair. The party line that I heard in several interviews was that Kirk got the captain's chair in the first film, but he truly earned it in the second film.

And to be fair, there was a lot of criticism after XI that Kirk had become captain too fast, so the writers were trying to address that. But IMO they laid it on too thick at the beginning of STID. Kirk starts the film by accidentally stunning his and McCoy's "ride" leading to the crazy jump off a cliff, and then we get Scotty chastising Kirk for putting the Enterprise at the bottom of the ocean. We also get a line from Sulu when the shuttle is failing, where he says something to the effect of, "I told the captain that the shuttle wouldn't be able to take this." Followed by Kirk's nonchalant, "So they saw us, big deal." Then of course the threesome with the Caitians, and it's also strongly implied that Kirk had a fling with Christine Chapel and dumped her.

So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.

I'm not sure he will have a romance with Marcus perhaps the twist will be that its McCoy and Marcus. But I think you have great points on Kirk heading towards maturity.

I don't have that much problem with Kirk having a 3-some or dating girls. I'm more concerned with the 'disrespect' he has for these girls. More problems with him leering at Marcus, saying 'hello Ladies', forgetting Chapel's name and I'm also condemning him for that deleted scene in ST09 where he mixes up Gaila and another Orion girl .
At the risk of sounding like a boring feminist you just don't see Kirk interacting with women much in a positive fashion.
It doesn't worry me that much though. I'm not invested in these 'one-night' stand girls but it makes me think less of Kirk's character. I wonder if there are fans of the movies that admire nuKirk's interaction with the ladies.

Well, my crystal ball is broken, and predictions are made to be wrong -- but I don't think there is any chance whatsoever we'll see a McCoy-Marcus romance in the next film. The sequel will have Kirk-Marcus, nuDavid will be spawned, and McCoy will be lucky to get anything more than a small supporting part. And I say this as someone who loves McCoy and Karl Urban.

As far as the Gaila subplot in XI, the whole reason that was deleted in the first place was because it made Kirk too unlikable. That's why it was cut. So as far as I'm concerned, it never happened.

Through XI and the early part of STID, the writers wanted to show us that Kirk was a playboy. Mission accomplished. The point was hammered home with a sledgehammer. I think they know it's time to move on already, and I am convinced we will see a more mature Kirk in the next film.

 

[Hugh Mann]

There isn't any of the spirit of the old characters. Abrams' characters are two-dimensional, thinly-veiled caricatures of the original crew, at best. McCoy does nothing of value, ever, and every time Karl Urban utters a one-liner it is painfully evident the scriptwriters are trying to make him a grouchy old man without ever having watched Kelly DeForest. Kirk is an idiot with no redeeming features and who should be in a mental institution because his sociopathic idiocy makes him a danger to everyone else around him. Unlike the original who even at his worst wasn't completely brainless. Spock, always the most interesting of the original crew, completely lacks the subtlety and nuance of Leonard Nimoy's, as if the writers simply decided that making him speak awkwardly was enough to give him depth (and judging from the posts on this forum, most people appear to mistake that for actual characterization). The rest of the characters are all the same.

It's difficult to tell whether the actors are genuinely awful and incapable, or whether they are simply doing the best they can with shitty scriptwriting and directing. I lean towards the latter, personally.

 

[BillJ]

There isn't any of the spirit of the old characters. Abrams' characters are two-dimensional, thinly-veiled caricatures of the original crew, at best. McCoy does nothing of value, ever, and every time Karl Urban utters a one-liner it is painfully evident the scriptwriters are trying to make him a grouchy old man without ever having watched Kelly DeForest.

I find them appropriate for the ages that are being shown. Been watching TOS since 1975. McCoy did nothing but save Kirk.

And it's DeForest Kelley.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There isn't any of the spirit of the old characters. Abrams' characters are two-dimensional, thinly-veiled caricatures of the original crew, at best. McCoy does nothing of value, ever, and every time Karl Urban utters a one-liner it is painfully evident the scriptwriters are trying to make him a grouchy old man without ever having watched Kelly DeForest.

I find them appropriate for the ages that are being shown. Been watching TOS since 1975. McCoy did nothing but save Kirk.

And it's DeForest Kelley.

It's hilarious when "experts" can't even get the basics right.

 

[Amaris]

There isn't any of the spirit of the old characters. Abrams' characters are two-dimensional, thinly-veiled caricatures of the original crew, at best. McCoy does nothing of value, ever, and every time Karl Urban utters a one-liner it is painfully evident the scriptwriters are trying to make him a grouchy old man without ever having watched Kelly DeForest. Kirk is an idiot with no redeeming features and who should be in a mental institution because his sociopathic idiocy makes him a danger to everyone else around him. Unlike the original who even at his worst wasn't completely brainless. Spock, always the most interesting of the original crew, completely lacks the subtlety and nuance of Leonard Nimoy's, as if the writers simply decided that making him speak awkwardly was enough to give him depth (and judging from the posts on this forum, most people appear to mistake that for actual characterization). The rest of the characters are all the same.

It's difficult to tell whether the actors are genuinely awful and incapable, or whether they are simply doing the best they can with shitty scriptwriting and directing. I lean towards the latter, personally.

You know what pisses me off? When J.J. completely glosses over the time Kirk, from TOS, shot womp-rats in his T16. Kind of a "way to forget the rich lore, you hip and edgy bespectacled son-of-a-bitch," you know?

 

[starburst]

By contrast, STID NuKirk felt to me like a step backwards, almost like his entire characterisation had been rewound back to that early bar fight scene from the first movie. I was disappointed with that aspect of STID.

To me (and this may just be the way I watched it) that was the point, Kirk is a natural leader who saved Earth and won the centre seat on Starfleets newest ship through bravado, out of the box thinking and a whole heap of luck.

The start of STID shows that while hes grown in his command hes gotten used to taking risks and them working out, looses his ship and shows he is the same guy from the bar fight as pointed out by Pike.

By the end of the movie he has lost his surrogate father along with watching a number of people die and almost gave into his desire for revenge, lost a number of people under his command, almost had his ship destroyed and then died saving it. For me the turning point is when he genuinely turns to his crew and says "Im sorry..." when he realises what he has done will likely get them all killed.

Hopefully the new writers will now show him as the Captain the Enterprise deserves now he has come from darkness and earnt his chair.

 

[LilyThompson]

I think they're excellent modernized, moviefied versions of the TOS characters. The biggest difference is that they see each other as friends first and officers second.

Kirk is based more on the classic movie Kirk than the (to be honest, rather generic and occasionally unpleasently grabby) TV series version.

Spock has probably changed the most of the main cast, although after what he's lived through it's not surprising. He's snarky and a little unstable.

McCoy is McCoy, but they're feeding him better in this timeline.

There's a lot more to Uhura. Like the "Mr. Adventure" scene from STIII expanded into a whole person. No more "I'm frightened, captain" and screaming. And she can speak Klingon.

Scotty has a bit of a chip on his shoulder now, and due perhaps to the Temporal Cold War has less hair than his older self.

Sulu's speech in ID was the coolest thing the character ever did. Less goofy than TOS Sulu, although we haven't seen enough of him to really say.

Chekov is the same as ever, but a little more humble and perhaps a little smarter - but like Sulu, we haven't seen enough to be certain.

Khan and Carol seem the most different to me, but the both were seen in a totally different situations than before. TOS Khan would probably do the same as ID Khan if put into the same situation. Carol seemed wide-eyed and innocent in ID but world weary in WoK. Such things come with age, I guess...

I agree with your staeement, except I wouldn't see them as "excellent". Nu-Kirk is a jerk. Other than that, you're spot-on!

 

[Shaka Zulu]

I think they're excellent modernized, moviefied versions of the TOS characters. The biggest difference is that they see each other as friends first and officers second.

Kirk is based more on the classic movie Kirk than the (to be honest, rather generic and occasionally unpleasently grabby) TV series version.

Spock has probably changed the most of the main cast, although after what he's lived through it's not surprising. He's snarky and a little unstable.

McCoy is McCoy, but they're feeding him better in this timeline.

There's a lot more to Uhura. Like the "Mr. Adventure" scene from STIII expanded into a whole person. No more "I'm frightened, captain" and screaming. And she can speak Klingon.

Scotty has a bit of a chip on his shoulder now, and due perhaps to the Temporal Cold War has less hair than his older self.

Sulu's speech in ID was the coolest thing the character ever did. Less goofy than TOS Sulu, although we haven't seen enough of him to really say.

Chekov is the same as ever, but a little more humble and perhaps a little smarter - but like Sulu, we haven't seen enough to be certain.

Khan and Carol seem the most different to me, but the both were seen in a totally different situations than before. TOS Khan would probably do the same as ID Khan if put into the same situation. Carol seemed wide-eyed and innocent in ID but world weary in WoK. Such things come with age, I guess...

I agree with your statement, except I wouldn't see them as "excellent". Nu-Kirk is a jerk. Other than that, you're spot-on!

Kirk, a jerk? No more than the past version could be at times.

 

[Nerys Myk]

True

 

[RPJOB]

So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.

The problem for me was that in trying to show Kirk earning the captaincy in STID they pretty much did a reset button.

Pike gives him a dressing down and sends him back to the Academy.

Pike makes Kirk First Officer of the Enterprise.

Pike dies.

Marcus makes Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

That took what, 10 minutes? And what did Kirk do in that time to earn the center seat? Nothing. It was all people changing his position. You could have removed the whole demotion/promotion bit from the movie and nothing would have changed. Harrison kills Pike. Marcus sends kirk after Harrison. Works out exactly the same.

 

[Commishsleer]

So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.

The problem for me was that in trying to show Kirk earning the captaincy in STID they pretty much did a reset button.

Pike gives him a dressing down and sends him back to the Academy.

Pike makes Kirk First Officer of the Enterprise.

Pike dies.

Marcus makes Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

That took what, 10 minutes? And what did Kirk do in that time to earn the center seat? Nothing. It was all people changing his position. You could have removed the whole demotion/promotion bit from the movie and nothing would have changed. Harrison kills Pike. Marcus sends kirk after Harrison. Works out exactly the same.

Look it took more than 10 minutes 'real time'.

Kirk did a lot of stuff. He took down Harrison and stopped his attack. Discovered where Harrison had gone (I don't know why Scotty was looking at it but hey he was).
And Kirk refused to kill Harrison without trial even though he really wanted to
Kirk learnt humility when facing off against Marcus.
Kirk let Spock take over the ship citing him as the better man for the job.
Kirk saved his ship against all odds.
Kirk wouldn't let Spock die saving the ship instead of him.

You can say that Kirk still doesn't deserve the captaincy. Fair enough.
But Kirk did learn a few things or appeared to IMO.

 

[The Wormhole]

So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.

The problem for me was that in trying to show Kirk earning the captaincy in STID they pretty much did a reset button.

Pike gives him a dressing down and sends him back to the Academy.

Pike makes Kirk First Officer of the Enterprise.

Pike dies.

Marcus makes Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

That took what, 10 minutes? And what did Kirk do in that time to earn the center seat? Nothing. It was all people changing his position. You could have removed the whole demotion/promotion bit from the movie and nothing would have changed. Harrison kills Pike. Marcus sends kirk after Harrison. Works out exactly the same.

Look it took more than 10 minutes 'real time'.

Kirk did a lot of stuff. He took down Harrison and stopped his attack. Discovered where Harrison had gone (I don't know why Scotty was looking at it but hey he was).
And Kirk refused to kill Harrison without trial even though he really wanted to
Kirk learnt humility when facing off against Marcus.
Kirk let Spock take over the ship citing him as the better man for the job.
Kirk saved his ship against all odds.
Kirk wouldn't let Spock die saving the ship instead of him.

You can say that Kirk still doesn't deserve the captaincy. Fair enough.
But Kirk did learn a few things or appeared to IMO.

However, what RPJOB was referring to specifically did only take ten minutes or so. Well, okay, maybe a day in continuity, but still.

Kirk is chewed out, stripped of rank, and sent back to the Academy. He goes to a bar to get drunk and maybe score.

Pike shows up, cockblocks Kirk and informs him he's to be the Enterprise's first officer.

Harrison attacks Starfleet midnight briefing. Pike is killed. Kirk defends himself with a fire hose.

Marcus restores Kirk to captain.

That part could have very easily have been removed from the movie with no impact on the storyline. A better way to have gone about the Kirk earns his command routine would have been to have him suspended for his Prime Directive violations until such time as a hearing can be held. However, then Harrison shows up, kills every Captain and first officer in the Sol system when he attacks the briefing, leaving Kirk the only officer left with any kind of command experience and therefore the only choice to deal with things.

 

[Commishsleer]

I don't think that it was meant to show that Kirk earnt his captaincy by being one of the few captains left alive. He only really got his captaincy back by being a suitable patsy for Admiral Marcus.
I think the captaincy was supposed to be earnt by his actions in the entire movie.

As a Star Trek fan I thought the sudden captaincy at the end of ST09 was very surprising but thought they were trying to appeal to a younger audience.
I felt actually Kirk had earned his captaincy a bit at the beginning of STID by not letting a civilisation die unnecessarily, and not having any deaths in his crew for 6 months. I thought them taking the Enterprise off him was a bit petty of Starfleet. If they were actually concerned about the Prime Directive they should have courtmartialled him

 

[JarodRussell]

Ironically, STD proved my point that there was not a single bit of character development in nuTrek 2009. Kirk is the very same bar brawler he was from the start. Spock NEVER learns to control his emotions. He turns into a psychopath in Trek 2009 when he gets annoyed, and he does it again in STD.

 

[Commishsleer]

Ironically, STD proved my point that there was not a single bit of character development in nuTrek 2009. Kirk is the very same bar brawler he was from the start. Spock NEVER learns to control his emotions. He turns into a psychopath in Trek 2009 when he gets annoyed, and he does it again in STD.

I think psychopath is a bit much.
Perhaps does his duty and defends the Federation and its interests against a guy who killed at least 40 people and is still a danger. Its not like Khan was going to retire to Ceti Alpha and start a new colony in peace.

 

[T'Ryl]

Ironically, STD proved my point that there was not a single bit of character development in nuTrek 2009. Kirk is the very same bar brawler he was from the start. Spock NEVER learns to control his emotions. He turns into a psychopath in Trek 2009 when he gets annoyed, and he does it again in STD.

You cannot say Spock never learned to control his emotions. We don't see enough of his normal life for that. Look at all that has happened to him. 1) He lost his Mother and, 2) His home world is GONE, thanks to STXI. Surak himself might say, "The cause was more than sufficient. Let us speak no further of it."

I'm sorry, but I think ALL Vulcan's would find it hard to put aside their emotions if they were suddenly faced with the loss of their family, friends, home. Everything they knew is gone. As far as canon is concerned, thanks to Enterprise, it had been only a little over a 100 years that the true teachings of Surak had been found, and now, we must assume they too are lost. Because I do not recall seeing the Kir'Shara on any of the Vulcan elders when they beamed off.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd1630.jpg

[Converted to link. Pics posted as embedded images should be hosted on your own web space or on an image-hosting account registered to you. Also, that one was pretty gigantic; please try to resize large images to no more than 800 pixels in width. - M']

Nope they hold NOTHING! IMO Nu!Vulcan Elders didn't care enough about Surak's teaching to SAVE it from permanent destruction. But then, JJ doesn't care enough about the original works to be concerned about them.

 

[RPJOB]

So yeah, the writers went overboard with the immature playboy stuff in the early part of STID, but it was all in the name of giving Kirk a character arc where he could grow up (having Kirk's surrogate father die was part of that, too) and truly earn his position as captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film. I have faith that Kirk will be more mature in the next film, especially since I do expect a romance with Carol Marcus is in the cards.

The problem for me was that in trying to show Kirk earning the captaincy in STID they pretty much did a reset button.

Pike gives him a dressing down and sends him back to the Academy.

Pike makes Kirk First Officer of the Enterprise.

Pike dies.

Marcus makes Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

That took what, 10 minutes? And what did Kirk do in that time to earn the center seat? Nothing. It was all people changing his position. You could have removed the whole demotion/promotion bit from the movie and nothing would have changed. Harrison kills Pike. Marcus sends kirk after Harrison. Works out exactly the same.

Look it took more than 10 minutes 'real time'.

Kirk did a lot of stuff. He took down Harrison and stopped his attack. Discovered where Harrison had gone (I don't know why Scotty was looking at it but hey he was).
And Kirk refused to kill Harrison without trial even though he really wanted to
Kirk learnt humility when facing off against Marcus.
Kirk let Spock take over the ship citing him as the better man for the job.
Kirk saved his ship against all odds.
Kirk wouldn't let Spock die saving the ship instead of him.

You can say that Kirk still doesn't deserve the captaincy. Fair enough.
But Kirk did learn a few things or appeared to IMO.

Yes, Kirk did do all of those things. AFTER he became Captain again. Kirk once again went from attending the Academy (as ordered by Pike for disciplinary reasons) to being the Captain in the space of just a few hours. Ge did stop Harrison's attack on the meeting but isn't that something that any member of Starfleet would have done? You don't get to be Captain for doing your job. You get to be Captain by doing your job really, really well and showing that you have the ability to lead your crew.

If the writers planned to address the complaints that Kirk got the captaincy too quickly in the first movie they really did a bad job of improving the situation in the second. As I said before, you could remove the whole demotion/promotion from the movie and literally nothing would change.

 

[Gsam]

perhaps this is considered off topic or needs to be under another header, if so I apologize in advance for this error on my part.

It was brought up that it is expected that Kirk and Carol Marcus will have a romance. I must preface this by saying I absolutely abhor the whole TWOK story line with regards to Kirk/Carol/David. That being said, though I hate to say this, perhaps if they do have a romance it will be because Carol has seen a maturation of Kirk. She is well aware of his reputation and what happened with her friend Christine Chapel.

On the other hand, a mature Kirk would not become involved with a crewmember, and the same would go for Dr. McCoy. I'm thinking the main focus is the Spock/Uhura romance.

Honestly, I just think that unless something drastically changes in the attitude of the writers a highly mature Kirk is unlikely.

All this being said, I love the new characters except for Spock. I particularly enjoyed Chris Pine and Karl Urban and sincerely hope the next film leaves the romance to Spock and Uhura. I would like it to focus on friendships, the closeness of the crew.

As I read this I am really thinking I am in the wrong place to post these thoughts but I will leave it up to the moderator.

 

[shapeshifter]

I'm sorry, but I think ALL Vulcan's would find it hard to put aside their emotions if they were suddenly faced with the loss of their family, friends, home. Everything they knew is gone. As far as canon is concerned, thanks to Enterprise, it had been only a little over a 100 years that the true teachings of Surak had been found, and now, we must assume they too are lost. Because I do not recall seeing the Kir'Shara on any of the Vulcan elders when they beamed off.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd1630.jpg

Nope they hold NOTHING! IMO Nu!Vulcan Elders didn't care enough about Surak's teaching to SAVE it from permanent destruction. But then, JJ doesn't care enough about the original works to be concerned about them.

IIRC, during the escape but prior to them reaching the beam out point the Elder crushed by the falling statue was carrying something...