Characters' Mistakes - "THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK".

[Reverend]

But Jabba was the one who already put a big price on his head, set bounty hunters after him, in ANH already. Although that's kind of retroactively ignored in Empire, the threat seeming and being talked about as recent.

Jabba was right there with Han in bay 94 with Boba Fett and a small army of muscle close at hand. If he wanted Han dead, he'd be dead, What he wanted was his money, plus an extra 15% for the trouble and most important, one of his best smugglers back working for him so he could make more profit from him. which is why he gave him some more time.

ESB doesn't retroactively ignore anything, it's just mentioned that whatever happened at Ord Mantell made the situations considerably more pressing. Presumably some bounty hunter got close enough to succeeding for Han to decide it was no longer worth the risk of running around with the Rebels while there's a price on his head (several, assuming the Empire was after him too.) Maybe Jabba's patience finally ran out and he upped the bounty considerably for the loss of face.

That's possible, I've heard that interpretation before (especially with the idea that Han's reward money got stolen and the Rebels wouldn't pay again). That would make him a big liar in RotJ, when he tells Jabba he'll pay him triple, he's throwing away a fortune, which I don't think was the intention but oh well.

Han always tries to bluff his way out. It's kind of his thing.

 

[ALF]

That's a pivotal step in Luke's character development. Sure, one can call it a mistake, but it's the writers intent for it to be a mistake so that it can have meaning and consequence for Luke.

Yes, and if Luke didn't race to Bespin from Degobah to save his friends, he wouldn't have encountered Vader and lost his hand - which becomes an important reminder at the end of Return of the Jedi. Luke needs his mechanical hand to illustrate to him how close to the dark side he has come.

 

[HugeLobes]

ESB doesn't retroactively ignore anything.

Exactly.

Honestly, it kinda doesn’t make sense that Han doesn’t pay off Jabba right away, but who cares?

You’d be hard pressed to find a single movie without some kind of inconsistency. You get away with one or two without breaking the viewer’s suspension of disbelief or faith in the characters. ESB features fantastic characters, great dialogue, wonderful cinematography, and one of the strongest plots. People can forgive a slight inconsistency with Han’s actions that occur (or don’t occur) before the movie even starts. He even acknowledges his mistake right at the start, and it’s one of the first signs of him growing into a more mature person.

This thread feels clearly motivated by hate for the prequels, but, for what it’s worth, most people don’t hate the prequels because of tiny plot inconsistencies. If TPM and ESB were of the same overall quality, things like, for example, Qui-Gon taking Jar Jar Binks with him to Watto wouldn’t be such a big deal.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Honestly, it kinda doesn’t make sense that Han doesn’t pay off Jabba right away, but who cares?

The multi-layered answer to this is established in the first act, beginning with the first scene with Luke and Han out on tauntaun. Luke is Han's friend. A major reason that Han prolonged his stay with the Rebels that Luke was leading was because Luke needed Han.

What concerned Han more than the bounty hunter on Ord Mantell was that he was starting to fall for Leia. But she also frustrated him, because he felt she was hiding behind the Rebellion's need of his presence. Han coping with his changing feelings was starting to compromise him emotionally, and the vulnerability he felt was too much for him to handle, so he started to split. By this point, paying off Jabba was just the convenient excuse. But Han quickly changed his mind when he learned that Luke was in real trouble.

Han stayed with the Rebels after the Battle of Yavin because he had bonded with his new friends who needed him.

 

[HugeLobes]

I know there are in-world explanations. There always seem to be billions for Star Wars. What I’m saying is that it still feels a little like Han could have paid off debts to this very dangerous guy, but that it really doesn’t matter too much since it’s such a small and solitary inconsistency.

Also, Luke wasn’t leading the Rebels. He never really mattered to them.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I know there are in-world explanations. There always seem to be billions for Star Wars. What I’m saying is that it still feels a little like Han could have paid off debts to this very dangerous guy, but that it really doesn’t matter too much since it’s such a small and solitary inconsistency.

That's like saying that Luke could have stayed on Tatooine and not risked his life to save a Princess he'd never met. He could easily have lived a long, quiet life far from the center of the universe.

It's tautological that characters could make different choices. The story and plot happen because the characters make certain choices, and for dramatic purposes it's better that they be choices with consequences.

Han chose to sacrifice his relations with Jabba for what he thought was a better cause: the Rebellion and the sake of his new friends. If he had gone to pay Jabba, he might never return, and in that case he would be turning his back on his friends. Luke laid that out to Han in the original film. Han could have gone to pay Jabba, while Vader shot Luke out of the sky over Yavin. The danger remains even after the Death Star is destroyed. Han stayed for the sake of his friends, not his own. What's happening in the opening act of TESB is a continuation of what happened in the last act of the original film.

There is no inconsistency.

 

[HugeLobes]

Oh, Jesus Christ...

I'm saying there's some small inconsistency in the idea that Han wouldn't pay off Jabba given that's his entire motivation through ANH and would clearly remain a major issue for him even after his change of heart.

In contrast:

That's like saying that Luke could have stayed on Tatooine and not risked his life to save a Princess he'd never met. He could easily have lived a long, quiet life far from the center of the universe.

Except Luke's motivation for the entire first act is to get away and lead a more exciting life...

Han's choice at the end was to leave and put himself first or join the Rebels; quickly going to pay off Jabba wouldn't necessarily mean he'd forsaken the cause, especially since he'd already risked himself by coming back to save Luke. It's a very small inconsistency, but it doesn't really matter because it serves the plot well and doesn't feel forced. It doesn't even bother me, but I think there's a case to be made that his behaviour is at least a little inconsistent.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm saying there's some small inconsistency in the idea that Han wouldn't pay off Jabba given that's his entire motivation through ANH.

Except it wasn't Han's motivation. If that had been his motivation, he would have left with the reward and not come back. If that had been his motivation, he wouldn't have bothered to mention that the attack was suicide as if that had any bearing on why he wasn't going to stay. If that was Han's motivation, then why did Jabba have to come looking for Han or send Greedo after him? Those sorts of things tend to happen because the debtor is trying to duck out of paying.

 

[HugeLobes]

Except it wasn't Han's motivation. If that had been his motivation, he would have left with the reward and not come back. If that had been his motivation, he wouldn't have bothered to mention that the attack was suicide as if that had any bearing on why he wasn't going to stay. If that was Han's motivation, then why did Jabba have to come looking for Han or send Greedo after him? Those sorts of things tend to happen because the debtor is trying to duck out of paying.

Han's motivation is money right up to the end. That's why he agrees to take Luke and Ben ("This could really save my neck.") That's why he's interested in saving Leia ("more wealth than you can imagine"/"I don't know. I can imagine quite a bit" and "I'm not in this for your revolution. I expect to be well paid"). That's the main reason why he wants to leave right away ("You got your reward and you're just leaving?"/"That's right. I got some old debts I've got to pay off with this stuff"). His line about attacking the Death Star looking like suicide isn't his main reason for not joining the attack - notice how that part of the line starts with the word "besides"?

As for Jabba looking for Han, seems more likely Han was avoiding him since he didnt have the money, which is exactly what we're shown in the movie. He's not trying to 'duck out of paying'. He says multiple times throughout the movie that he needs to pay Jabba back but simply doesn't have the cash.

He does change his mind at the end and come back for Luke, but I don't think that completely explains why he wouldn't attempt to pay Jabba during the three years between ANH and ESB, especially since he's already seen how dangerous it can be to avoid that payment. He was literally warned that Jabba would put a huge price on his head. His final decision was less a choice between joining the Rebels and paying off debts as between putting himself first or helping others and joining the cause.

 

[fireproof78]

He does change his mind at the end and come back for Luke, but I don't think that completely explains why he wouldn't attempt to pay Jabba during the three years between ANH and ESB, especially since he's already seen how dangerous it can be to avoid that payment.

I think Han wanted to protect his friends and part of that would be the evacuation of the Rebel base. As tenacious as Jabba is the Imperials are equally so, and the Rebels would be in just as much danger.

 

[HugeLobes]

I think Han wanted to protect his friends and part of that would be the evacuation of the Rebel base. As tenacious as Jabba is the Imperials are equally so, and the Rebels would be in just as much danger.

For three years though? Again, I'm not saying this is some huge problem, but I do think there's something to the idea that Han not paying off Jabba during that time (despite being told he'll have a price on his head "so large that every bounty hunter in the galaxy will be looking for you") is possibly a little inconsistent with his actions in the previous movie...

Not saying it really matters - in fact it's the best thing to do since it works so well with the ongoing plot. Just saying it's there.

 

[fireproof78]

For three years though? Again, I'm not saying this is some huge problem, but I do think there's something to the idea that Han not paying off Jabba during that time (despite being told he'll have a price on his head "so large that every bounty hunter in the galaxy will be looking for you") is possibly a little inconsistent with his actions in the previous movie...

Not saying it really matters - in fact it's the best thing to do since it works so well with the ongoing plot. Just saying it's there.

Yes, for three years. Constantly on the run from the Empire, trying to establish a new base and all that entails.

It isn't as unbelievable or as inconsistent as it appears at first blush.

 

[HugeLobes]

Yes, for three years. Constantly on the run from the Empire, trying to establish a new base and all that entails.

It isn't as unbelievable or as inconsistent as it appears at first blush.

Well, that's all just conjecture isn't it? We don't know how pressed Han was during that time, but we do know he had a huge price on his head that he was struggling through the first movie to pay off. Again, I'm just saying the argument exists. But then I forgot that this is Star Wars fandom, where there's no inconsistencies by rule of law.

 

[Reverend]

Well, that's all just conjecture isn't it? We don't know how pressed Han was during that time, but we do know he had a huge price on his head that he was struggling through the first movie to pay off. Again, I'm just saying the argument exists. But then I forgot that this is Star Wars fandom, where there's no inconsistencies by rule of law.

Sure we do. Go read the comics! I think they're at around the ANH+2 years mark by now.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, that's all just conjecture isn't it? We don't know how pressed Han was during that time, but we do know he had a huge price on his head that he was struggling through the first movie to pay off. Again, I'm just saying the argument exists. But then I forgot that this is Star Wars fandom, where there's no inconsistencies by rule of law.

That's hardly beneficial to the discussion...

Yes, it is conjecture. I am remarking upon my general impression since watching the films. I don't necessarily see it as an inconsistency, but I can see the argument that can be made. My personal issues with ESB don't revolve around that but it is a legitimate point that I can follow.

Sure we do. Go read the comics! I think they're at around the ANH+2 years mark by now.

Also, the Holiday Special.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Han's motivation is money right up to the end. That's why he agrees to take Luke and Ben ("This could really save my neck.") That's why he's interested in saving Leia ("more wealth than you can imagine"/"I don't know. I can imagine quite a bit" and "I'm not in this for your revolution. I expect to be well paid"). That's the main reason why he wants to leave right away ("You got your reward and you're just leaving?"/"That's right. I got some old debts I've got to pay off with this stuff"). His line about attacking the Death Star looking like suicide isn't his main reason for not joining the attack - notice how that part of the line starts with the word "besides"?

As for Jabba looking for Han, seems more likely Han was avoiding him since he didnt have the money, which is exactly what we're shown in the movie. He's not trying to 'duck out of paying'. He says multiple times throughout the movie that he needs to pay Jabba back but simply doesn't have the cash.

He does change his mind at the end and come back for Luke, but I don't think that completely explains why he wouldn't attempt to pay Jabba during the three years between ANH and ESB, especially since he's already seen how dangerous it can be to avoid that payment. He was literally warned that Jabba would put a huge price on his head. His final decision was less a choice between joining the Rebels and paying off debts as between putting himself first or helping others and joining the cause.

You said his "entire motivation" was money in order to pay off Jabba. Obviously he was worried about money. Obviously he was worried about Jabba. But he said he had old debts to pay off, in the plural; Jabba was after him for dropping one shipment, which is only one debt. So either Han was lying, being sketchy, or Han owed multiple creditors and had for a long time. Sure Han was interested in money; what kind of mercenary wouldn't be? But there's evidence, which I've cited above, that he wasn't necessarily going to pay off Jabba straight away even if he had the money. If paying off Jabba was his "entire motivation," he wouldn't have stuck around for the Death Star attack briefing. He was going to split after the briefing, because it was a suicide mission, and he wouldn't get to enjoy the fortune he'd finally gotten.

[edited to add: If Han's entire motivation had been only to pay off Jabba, as Han and Chewie are loading up the reward would Chewie have made a growl indicating the question "Are you sure we're doing the right thing?", or would Chewie have growled "Fuck, yeah, let's blow this joint!"? Chewie was being the voice of Han's conscience, implying that he knew that Han was conflicted about what to do.]

By the way, if Han had gone to Jabba's palace and paid Jabba, do you really think that Jabba would let him walk out of the palace a free agent? Jabba could easily offer Han more work, which he'd expect him to accept, knowing he's a broke mercenary. If Han felt he was well off enough to refuse, Jabba might wonder why. Besides, there's no reason to think that Jabba hadn't heard and/or figured out that the easy little charter Han had was to ferry the droids that the Empire had turned Mos Eisley upside down looking for, especially given the way he departed Tatooine, with three Star Destroyers on his ass. Han would know that paying off Jabba could be as good as walking into a trap to be captured and sold to the Empire.

With a fortune, he could go anywhere in the galaxy. He could set up his own operation, the way Lando had done. Maybe he does business with Jabba, to pay off his debt in a structured way, and ditto any of his other creditors. Maybe he tries to keeping staying a step ahead of all of them, the way we've been given reason to believe he might have been doing for a while.

There's a very wide space between Han's being a mercenary and interested in money and on the other hand what you said, his "entire motivation" being to pay off Jabba. There's a great deal of evidence for the former but none for, and lots against, the latter.

 

[suarezguy]

For three years though?

I think the movie works better, makes more sense, if you interpret that it instead happened somewhere between 3 months and 13 months after the end of ANH.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

And I'm referring to Han and Chewie's failure to notice that the Falcon was being followed by Boba Fett for a period of time.

It was always assumed Fett determined the only location the Falcon could be travelling to with no Hyperdrive, then "jumped" ahead after alerting Vader. Further, as a top bounty hunter used to hunting people without the prey knowing, he would have likely employed something to make sure he was undetected.

I'm referring to Luke's impulse to leave Dagobah and race to Bespin to save his friends.

As someone else noted, its part of his character arc, and above all else, he's human, so visions of his friends in pain--and with Kenobi pointing out:

"...even Yoda cannot see their fate.."

...was not going to comfort Luke enough to stop him from trying to rescue his friends. It illustrated that in the face of Luke's so-called "mistake"--and knowing the Emperor and Vader were punishing or possibly killing his friends as a trap for him, he bravely faced his fate, as his heart was and always would be in the right place. That's not a character mistake. Instead, its one of many reasons Luke is the face of / the greatest of all heroes in the Star Wars franchise.

And I'm referring to Chewie's attempt to kill Lando, while the latter was trying to help them escape . . . and Leia's obvious support of Chewie's murder attempt.

….not 10 minutes earlier, Han was frozen and taken away by Fett in front of their eyes. To Leia and Chewbacca, this was all Lando's fault, no matter how many times he said or implied there was nothing he could do (and there's that Vader guy and the might of his Empire hovering around). In other words, anger and grief were the expected first set of emotions that would be expressed to Lando once they had the opportunity. That's not a character mistake.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It was always assumed Fett determined the only location the Falcon could be travelling to with no Hyperdrive, then "jumped" ahead after alerting Vader.

I remember such discussions, but I never bought it. It doesn't make sense for a bounty hunter to abandon their quarry. So much can happen when the one being hunted is out of sight. They can make a rendezvous, for instance; someone can come to their aid. The fact that no one was in a position to come to the Falcon's aid is something that we know as viewers, but it's not something that Fett would've known. If one or more of the other bounty hunters swooped in and captured the Falcon, they'd get the bounty.

 

[Ithekro]

With Fett. A tracking device....or keying into the one the Empire left on it on the Death Star. If Solo managed to do anything besides head for Bespin, Fett would know about it pretty quickly.

Given that Lando said that "they" arrived shortly before Han did, I would guess Fett tracked Solo to the edge of the Bespin system, than he and Vader jumped to the planet and "negotiated" with Calrissian.