Changelings questions

[Hando]

^Good points Timo.

But then should it not be possible to search/scan for disturbances in "otherspace"? Although I can understand that do the the possible features of "otherspace" it would not be possible.

By the way are the Changelings detectable when in gelatin state?


Also a return to the brain.
Are the Changeling then so good that the Human they morph into actuality believes himself to be real? And is more like a puppet/avatar for the Changeling?
It sounds strange, but as we know, telepathy works in Star Trek. So how come that nobody used this method to find infiltrators - that we know of. Odo is supposedly non-readable, although that may because he still has not learned to make a perfect humanoid body and/or control the impulses in the brain.

 

[Timo]

By the way are the Changelings detectable when in gelatin state?

Well, they are perfectly visible to our heroes. When they visit the Founder hideout planets in "The Search" and "Broken Link", there is never any dialogue of them spotting the vast seas of Founders via sensors, but there's no need to, as recognizing their presence is not a matter of spotting.

Theoretically, though, there are several things (substances, lifeforms good at hiding, cloaking devices) that our heroes or their tricorders cannot detect, and a well-trained Founder ought to be able to become any one of those! Well, perhaps not a cloaking device, but we never get explicit proof that Founders cannot become complex machines. That's a Terminator-1000 thing, not an established Founder shortcoming.

Are the Changeling then so good that the Human they morph into actuality believes himself to be real?

More like the Founder in human or Bajoran or Klingon shape is confident that "he" is physically human, Bajoran or Klingon. "He" still thinks Founder thoughts, though, as we see in those episodes where Founders in such disguise have dialogue. It's not as if the "O'Brien" that chats with Sisko in "Paradise Lost" would mistake himself for O'Brien, etc.

It sounds strange, but as we know, telepathy works in Star Trek. So how come that nobody used this method to find infiltrators - that we know of. Odo is supposedly non-readable, although that may because he still has not learned to make a perfect humanoid body and/or control the impulses in the brain.

"The Forsaken" certainly seems to proceed as if the usually intrusive Lwaxana cannot read Odo's mind. Then again, Lwaxana is toying with Odo; possibly all her courtship involves her asking questions rather than directly finding out the answers?

Starfleet must have its share of mindreaders, but most of them are probably much more restrained and polite than Lwaxana; they might not spot the likes of "Admiral Leyton" or "Doctor Bashir" by accident. We don't know of any mindreader that would have spent a lot of time with a Founder and still failed to expose it.

For a somewhat different issue, Odo himself was able to spot the Female Founder in "Heart of Stone", but only after hours of what might be considered "police work". Yet he almost intuitively spotted "Admiral Leyton" during a conversation of only a few seconds. Perhaps Changelings can detect other Changelings, and Odo simply got better at it after the poor performances in "The Adversary" and "Heart of Stone"?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Please, Mr. Changeling, sit still for hours under my scanner while I probe you for evidence that you are a changeling.

The Holy Grail was having a scanner that could screen out potential shapeshifters quickly and accurately. Just like Archemedes death ray, it is useless if it requires (1) the enemy to cooperate and (2) lots of time.

Archimedes had a death ray? I would never have guessed...

It's a myth--a combination of mirrors and lenses that focuses solar light to produce a weaponized flame.

I heard that they tried to reproduce the event and failed. So it is indeed a legend.

 

[Timo]

Most things are, especially the true stories. For all we know, Archimedes allowed Syracuse to triumph by blinding the enemy with mirrors and then torching them with napalm arrows, and a conflation of the story lives on. (Nobody doubts the constructability of actual sun-concentrating death rays, given enough precision; it's just that it's pretty clear Archimedes couldn't have built one of those, even though we easily can. Viability in the tactical sense is a different issue.)

But "weapons that require the enemy to cooperate" is a recurring motif even in recent history. The current US ballistic missile interception system is one of those... In their hour of desperation, Starfleet might well have chosen to invest in a system that absolutely requires a Founder to sit very, very still and preferably wave its left hand when scanned.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

(Nobody doubts the constructability of actual sun-concentrating death rays, given enough precision; it's just that it's pretty clear Archimedes couldn't have built one of those, even though we easily can. Viability in the tactical sense is a different issue.)

Too many have mistaken the destructiveness of concentrated sunlight with an actual weapon. The Nazi--in another of their foibles--found that an effective weapon would need to be so large that it would be completely vulnerable.

Starfleet sensors are as accurate as the plot needs them to be. The writers did not want changelings to be easily identified, and their physiology was described as such to prevent that from happening. Somehow I don't think Dax, O'Brien and Bashir had some "brainfart," not considering how to improve the resolution, accuracy or speed of a scan. And we must accept that a talented shapeshifter in human form could read as entirely human. The Founders were, of course, able to manipulate Odo physically until he fully resembled a human.

 

[Hando]

That is actually a interesting point. The Founders were able to make Odo fully human.
I always wondered why not Bajoran, but alas.

But did they make him truly human or did they just locked his matrix into a human form? This would point to the sophistication level of change of the Changelings: change into a form where you feel emotions, pain, hunger...

Although then the question of the virus arises, was it just dormant? Could the Changeling have postponed the disease by turning fully solid, but it was against their belief and/or it never occurred them?

 

[Timo]

Too many have mistaken the destructiveness of concentrated sunlight with an actual weapon. The Nazi--in another of their foibles--found that an effective weapon would need to be so large that it would be completely vulnerable.

Yup. But in theory, an invasion fleet from 2,000 years ago would have been a much easier target than anything the Nazis would have wanted to fry. Flammable sails magically bursting into flame, bright light blinding the sailors and soldiers... (Not to mention the shock and awe of Syracuse suddenly possessing the technology to erect that massive precision reflector!)

It's just that forcing such incompatible jigsaw pieces together is about as pretty and productive as when a nine-month-old mutilates a puzzle that way...

But did they make him truly human or did they just locked his matrix into a human form?

The big question is, is there a difference? Supposedly, neither the finest sensors nor the Changelings themselves can tell it: Odo claims he feels like a rock rather than like a Changeling when he's a rock... Whatever that means.

What happens at the conclusion of Odo-as-Solid arc suggests that Odo was "just" locked into a shape after all: a minor triggering impulse from that infant Changeling restores his abilities. But we have zero idea of the actual nature of that impulse. Would it have turned Bashir or Sisko or the Ops table into a Changeling with equal ease? Probably not...

Although then the question of the virus arises, was it just dormant?

The timeline allows for various interpretations. Perhaps Odo was cured for good, and then contracted the disease again "venerically" from the Female Founder during the second occupation of DS9. His rate of deterioration between then and the final six episodes would roughly match that of the Female Founder between "Call to Arms" (the last time she could have Linked) and the second occupation (where she wasn't yet visibly ill, much like Odo looked fine until the final six).

Would the Female Founder do a lot of Changing while controlling the war effort in Alpha? If she didn't become a rock or a Solid regularly, the disease would proceed unhindered; if she frequently changed into something that didn't have a "purifying" simplicity, such as Solid or rock, the disease might be accelerated instead.

Timo Saloniemi