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Changelings questions

Hando

Commander
Red Shirt
Partially inspired by the Martok the Changeling thread.
You are welcomed to use non-canon sources.

1. Is there an actual evidence that Changelings are not trusted in the Federation? What about other shape-changing races?

2. Can the Federation detect Changelings? When did they gain this ability?

3. Could the Changelings actually be disunited? Are there some dissidents lying/floating on the bottom who are non-communicative?

4. Given their fear/hate of Solids, why do so many Changlings actually leave the link and play the infiltration game?
If their lives is so precious, why do some even plant bombs and bring their life to risk?
 
1. Is there an actual evidence that Changelings are not trusted in the Federation? What about other shape-changing races?
Hmm...

I'm sure there are people in the vast Federation who consider Changelings trusted allies or promising new overlords, just as there are people who love the idea of one day becoming Borg Drones. But the war would have been many folks' first exposure to the shapeshifter species, and would have left the species in the unenviable position of bitterly hated enemy.

There are no shapeshifters our Starfleet heroes would have been comfortable about. Such species are considered basically mythical, and they never qualify as a sensible first assumption in explaining the mystery of the week: Vendorians (TAS) and Chameloids (ST6) are known by reputation, but Kirk and pals have never seen them before, and their actions are not just alien but also hostile, even if only on an individual level. Purely individual masters of disguise, such as the Salt Vampire or Garth of Izar, are also purely adversarial (in part because of the attitudes of our heroes) and leave a bad impression.

2. Can the Federation detect Changelings? When did they gain this ability?
The Federation can smoke out Odo by tickling him with phasers on setting 3.5 or higher. The trick obviously doesn't work on adult Changelings, as when Starfleet implements it, it still fails to reveal a high-ranking Admiral as a Changeling! We never learn of a technology that would allow the sensing of Changelings

1) at a distance
2) without alerting them to the fact they are being sensed
3) indeed without involving forcing them out of their currently assumed shape.

3. Could the Changelings actually be disunited? Are there some dissidents lying/floating on the bottom who are non-communicative?
The Founders themselves refer to discussions or negotiations going on within the Link, so presumably there are differing opinions. And Odo and Laas fail to share major parts of the Founder worldview. It is also possible there are isolated groups of the species, unaware of the Dominion or disinterested in dealing with it, but we hear of no such group larger than the individuals Odo and Laas.

4. Given their fear/hate of Solids, why do so many Changlings actually leave the link and play the infiltration game?
To get back at the bullies? Infiltration must really help with subjugating or destroying Solids - say, we were told Jem'Hadar guns sliced through Starfleet shields like butter in DS9 "Jem'Hadar", but perhaps it was all because a Founder aboard was pulling plugs left and right?

If their lives is so precious, why do some even plant bombs and bring their life to risk?
I'm not sure any of the three oft-quoted bomb-planting scenarios in DS9 were for real...

1) In "Adversary", the Defiant was locked on a suicidal course, but the Founder aboard specifically tried to prevent the ship from being blown up. That he died was sort of unexpected; a bailout should have been possible.
2) In "Homefront", the bombing of the Antwerp meeting served the interests of the human Admiral Leyton, and probably not those of the Founders. It may have been purely the work of Leyton, and the visual recording of a Founder being at the bombing site could have been completely faked. No Founders supposedly were harmed in the action anyway.
3) In "By Inferno's Light", a Founder used the mere threat of a nova-bomb as a diversion for getting a Dominion fleet through the wormhole. In reality, there might have been no bomb at all. Sure, the diversion seemed to cost the Founder his life, but we know Changelings can survive in open space, become fire, etc. Perhaps that Founder in fact fled?

Timo Saloniemi
 
I don't know why it would be so hard to smoke out a changeling in humanoid form even using today's technology. A simple x-ray would show no organs inside. You'd just scan people at security checkpoints same as we do at airports.
 
1. Is there an actual evidence that Changelings are not trusted in the Federation? What about other shape-changing races?

If a Changeling race came up to them and their first contact was "Hi, we are a peace loving race. Let's open diplomatic relations and be friends." People would love them. Until one was accused of a crime or they started taking away the best Federation posts from the solids, then they'd try to litigate them into helplessness like the genetics kids.

2. Can the Federation detect Changelings? When did they gain this ability?

They can't, as of 2375. At least not while they are taking a solid shape. It was established that when a changeling is taking the form of anything, all scans are indistinguishable from the thing they are mimicking.

3. Could the Changelings actually be disunited? Are there some dissidents lying/floating on the bottom who are non-communicative?

The ones in the link are probably united. We don't know if some of the other 100 have formed their own coalition with different values. This is all very possible.

4. Given their fear/hate of Solids, why do so many Changlings actually leave the link and play the infiltration game?
If their lives is so precious, why do some even plant bombs and bring their life to risk?

Because they believe the only way to protect themselves from solids is to dominate them completely.
 
^As is explained in "The Adversary," the changelings performance is more than skin deep: " I'm not sure the sensors would help. If you scan me when I'm a rock, you'd detect a rock. I may not be able to duplicate a humanoid perfectly, but I'm guessing he can. "
 
I don't know why it would be so hard to smoke out a changeling in humanoid form even using today's technology. A simple x-ray would show no organs inside. You'd just scan people at security checkpoints same as we do at airports.
Why would that work? All they'd have to do is imitate the internals of a person too.

As Odo said once, "...scan me when I'm a rock, you'd detect a rock..."

Edit: Whoops, sorry. Bad Thoughts beat me to it. :)
 
I don't know why it would be so hard to smoke out a changeling in humanoid form even using today's technology. A simple x-ray would show no organs inside. You'd just scan people at security checkpoints same as we do at airports.
Why would that work? All they'd have to do is imitate the internals of a person too.

As Odo said once, "...scan me when I'm a rock, you'd detect a rock..."

Edit: Whoops, sorry. Bad Thoughts beat me to it. :)

If I scan the inside of your brain, will I find the same genius I have?:cool:
 
^As is explained in "The Adversary," the changelings performance is more than skin deep: " I'm not sure the sensors would help. If you scan me when I'm a rock, you'd detect a rock. I may not be able to duplicate a humanoid perfectly, but I'm guessing he can. "

I don't know why it would be so hard to smoke out a changeling in humanoid form even using today's technology. A simple x-ray would show no organs inside. You'd just scan people at security checkpoints same as we do at airports.
Why would that work? All they'd have to do is imitate the internals of a person too.

As Odo said once, "...scan me when I'm a rock, you'd detect a rock..."

Edit: Whoops, sorry. Bad Thoughts beat me to it. :)

If I scan the inside of your brain, will I find the same genius I have?:cool:

Quite true, but as Odo is not really an expert on Changelings, at best a dabbler, I take his words wit a grain of salt.

A) What is his expertise with Federation sensors? Is he basing his statement on knowledge of Cardassian sensors, which are worse the those used by the Federation?

B) As to what point/what resolution are the Changelings able to mimic? It is one of these arguments: How can an invisible man see? Would a brain scan/MRI distinguish between a person and a Changeling imitator?

C) Would the existence of the quantum stasis device not point out that there is a difference between a real thing and a Changeling taking the thing's form?
 
Quite true, but as Odo is not really an expert on Changelings, at best a dabbler, I take his words wit a grain of salt.
In The Adversary, they scanned the Ambassador and he registered as human. So we know for a fact that Odo is correct, a Founder can imitate a human so well that it fools scanners. Which doesn't seem unreasonable considering they can also turn into fog or plasma...or even light, seemingly.
 
But that's just biosign readings, not a physiological and anatomical scan.

Please, Mr. Changeling, sit still for hours under my scanner while I probe you for evidence that you are a changeling.

The Holy Grail was having a scanner that could screen out potential shapeshifters quickly and accurately. Just like Archemedes death ray, it is useless if it requires (1) the enemy to cooperate and (2) lots of time.
 
But that's just biosign readings, not a physiological and anatomical scan.

Please, Mr. Changeling, sit still for hours under my scanner while I probe you for evidence that you are a changeling.

The Holy Grail was having a scanner that could screen out potential shapeshifters quickly and accurately. Just like Archemedes death ray, it is useless if it requires (1) the enemy to cooperate and (2) lots of time.

Archimedes had a death ray? I would never have guessed...
 
Re (4), I can't remember that I've ever seen a cowardly founder.

So, in their own way, it appears they are brave and willing to infiltrate and plant bombs.
 
Re (4), I can't remember that I've ever seen a cowardly founder.

So, in their own way, it appears they are brave and willing to infiltrate and plant bombs.

On the other hand they fight their wars vicariously through their bred Jemadar and cloned Vorta and commit about a zillionth of their own kind to the war effort.

It's easy to be brave when your chances of being drafted are like one in a billion. In fact at the end of the war the female changeling (that never got a name) was the only one left in the Alpha quadrant, all her "brave" comrades were safely back home in a giant puddle of goo.
 
But that's just biosign readings, not a physiological and anatomical scan.

Please, Mr. Changeling, sit still for hours under my scanner while I probe you for evidence that you are a changeling.

The Holy Grail was having a scanner that could screen out potential shapeshifters quickly and accurately. Just like Archemedes death ray, it is useless if it requires (1) the enemy to cooperate and (2) lots of time.

Archimedes had a death ray? I would never have guessed...

It's a myth--a combination of mirrors and lenses that focuses solar light to produce a weaponized flame.
 
Hando said:
1. Is there an actual evidence that Changelings are not trusted in the Federation? What about other shape-changing races?
Why does this interest you?

As for shape shifters in general: Antagonistic shape shifters and creatures of the week outnumber the ones that are positively inclined. Besides Odo himself, I can only think of 1 shape shifting species that has a positive attitude. Namely the shape shifting pigs from Enterprise - who, especially for Jonathan Archer, shapeshift into a beautiful woman :rolleyes: Anyone remember their name?
 
Hando said:
1. Is there an actual evidence that Changelings are not trusted in the Federation? What about other shape-changing races?
Why does this interest you?

As for shape shifters in general: Antagonistic shape shifters and creatures of the week outnumber the ones that are positively inclined. Besides Odo himself, I can only think of 1 shape shifting species that has a positive attitude. Namely the shape shifting pigs from Enterprise - who, especially for Jonathan Archer, shapeshift into a beautiful woman :rolleyes: Anyone remember their name?

From "The Search, Part I":

ODO: I think there might be a simpler explanation, Commander. I think Starfleet decided to bring in someone they could trust, someone besides the shape-shifter.
SISKO: This is not a racial issue, Odo. I understand how you must feel, and I want

Sisko himself put it as a question of race rather then of origin.


If I understand the motivation behind the Dominion correctly, it because the Changelings were hurt by Solids and now want to be safe. Now this may be just propaganda and they are just interested in world-domination.

The point is if the people of the Federation do not have anything against shape-shifters in general then the Dominion may become an ally of the Federation - like the Klingons did.

There were a lot infiltrators in the Federation so the Dominion should have quite an insight into the Federation.


And yes we have seen a lot of shapeshifters and most contacts with them were negative.
 
Sisko himself put it as a question of race rather then of origin.
...And he seemed to do this purely because he knew it was a question of race (for Starfleet), and that origin would not alleviate the issue (even if Odo did have some sort of a benevolent origin to refer to, rather than "I'm a kid of the big villains and I'm drawn to them").

Perhaps significantly, this issue of replacing Odo was preceded by Starfleet learning about the Great Link; they could have decided that every Changeling in fact was a Founder by biological decree, no matter what their personal opinions or claims thereof.

Regarding the perfection of Changeling camouflage, yes, Odo seems to think he can become a rock capable of fooling sensors. This is significant in two ways: he's just a toddler and very unskilled as far as Changelings go, but OTOH he has lots of experience with the most paranoid scanners of the Trek universe, the totalitarian Cardassians (remember their lethal safety precautions and DNA-scanning doorknobs?).

The "how can the Invisible Man see?" issue is nicely sidestepped here by a rather concrete, physical and literal "sidestepping": somehow, Changelings seem to be capable of pushing a major part of their mass into some sort of an undetectable parallel dimension. That is, Odo can become a lightweight drinking glass Rom can carry on a tray, even though he insists that he cannot become complex machinery (i.e. no gravity manipulation based on technology); that he cannot remain split in small parts for long (i.e. he didn't leave most of him in a bucket); and even though when knocked unconscious, he remains "naturally" heavy for a humanoid, as in "Vortex" (i.e. he doesn't normally weigh as little as a glass and merely pretend to be much heavier when ballooning into humanoid shape).

If some of Odo's mass goes to otherspace, perhaps his "essence" lives there, too, allowing the part that remains behind to truly become something like rock or seagull or mist - that is, a non-Changeling that in theory should no longer have the ability to change back!

Timo Saloniemi
 
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