Chakotay's Rank

[Sam_I_Am]

So, I'm reopening the debate, this time with a poll.

Do we think Chakotay held the (albeit provisional) rank of Lieutenant Commander or Commander?

I think it is Lieutenant Commander:

1. The provisional rank device has two solid gold stripes and one black stripe, apparently equivalent to the two solid and one black pip of a 'regular' Lieutenant Commander.

2. Although Chakotay was never referred to as 'Lieutenant Commander', 'Commander' is commonly used as a short form. Additionally, until Tuvok's promotion, Chakotay was the only officer aboard who was a Lt. Commander, and so with no full Commanders aboard, it was not really necessary to use his full title.

3. We have seen first officers of smaller Starfleet ships holding the rank of or equal rank to Lieutenant Commander. Lt. Cmdr Cavit, for example. Similarly, Major Kira. Major is equivalent to Lieutenant Commander in the US and Commonwealth armies, so it is likely the writers intended it to be the same in Deep Space Nine.

4. After noticing Tuvok's costume error in Season 1 (he wore the insignia of a Lieutenant Commander for several episodes), the creators corrected it by giving him Lieutenant's pips. They also changed Torres and Paris from Lieutenants to Lieutenants (j.g.) As they did not alter Chakotay's insignia to that of a full Commander, we can assume they intended for him to be a Lieutenant Commander.

 

[Cepstrum]

I would vote "commander" but can't because the iPod is acting up

We never heard a reference to lieutenant commander in the shooting scripts, spoken dialogue, or intro credits. And costuming was often a problem on all Trek, not just VOY.

I'd surmise the former Maquis captain and his crew would accept nothing less, and it was clear he always outranked Tuvok (of course, you're right to note he would anyway because of his *position* as XO.)

And it's technically possible for Janeway to give him a brevet rank of anything while making him her XO, but I see no reason why she would not choose commander.

I think it's a costuming error (if there was one: I've never checked.) But we can check the series bible, shooting scripts, and intro credits. IIRC, I've always seen "commander" in print.

Finally, I think he deserved the rank. He was an actual honorable Maquis who formally resigned his SF commission, sacrificed his ship (snd nearly himself) to save Voyager, was willing to submit to Janeway but also aware that many of his former crew would have wanted him for captain. Anything less than commander would probably have them up in arms, and he would have probably quietly confronted Janeway letting her know for the sake of harmony, he should be a commander.


As for there being no other lieutenant commanders, later when Seven looked through the crew manifest she revealed some deceased people of that rank. Off hand, however, I don't recall if those included the initial dead from the Delta Quadrant displacement, such as the erstwhile XO lt. commanded Cravitt (sp?). But I am pretty sure there were more than one.

That's one of my biggest reasons for thinking Harry should have been promoted on schedule, with him as a (in general) very adept and multi-talented, by-the-book department head *and* the attrition rate of higher ranking officers. *Surely* there would be room for a new lieutenant (either full or jg)!


Edit: a cursory glance a behind-the-scenes info suggests he was raised to commander to replace the deceased lt. commander Cavit. I can search further for links and quotations, if you'd like.

Note: I'm not trying to invalidate your points. They are all perfectly reasonable. I just believe the body of evidence indicates he was in fact a commander.

But it *is* true that Voyager's first XO was a lt. commander. And yes, Kira was a major, not a lt. colonel or colonel, but she wasn't SF but Bajoran Militia. And it wasn't a SF vessel but a Bajoran space station. I don't think Kira's rank is relevant. I would like to see sources indicating Piller, Taylor, and/or Berman stated he was to be a provisional lt. commander. Especially given the inconsistent uniform/costuming.

If you want, I could look further for direct quotes etc. That is all we have to go on, IMO, for the dialogue was not crystal clear and costuming isn't reliable. (eg, no one, AFAIK, stated, "Chakotay's a *full* commander." Neither did anyone say "Chakotay is a lt. commander." Thus, I think we *must* examine behind-the-scenes info or exercise common sense. The latter of course, is too subjective.)

 

[Sam_I_Am]

I'd surmise the former Maquis captain and his crew would accept nothing less, and it was clear he always outranked Tuvok (of course, you're right to note he would anyway because of his *position* as XO.)

I would think the Maquis crew would accept nothing less than his being first officer. I don't think the rank he would technically hold would matter as much because from the start, he was the second-highest ranking officer aboard, and the only Lieutenant Commander and thus his role was structurally 'cemented'.

And it's technically possible for Janeway to give him a brevet rank of anything while making him her XO, but I see no reason why she would not choose commander.

I agree she could choose any rank she liked (well, inferior to Captain). Possibly she chose the rank that he'd held before he resigned his commission but I don't think we ever learnt what that was.

I think it's a costuming error (if there was one: I've never checked.) But we can check the series bible, shooting scripts, and intro credits. IIRC, I've always seen "commander" in print.

Memory Alpha uses the following 'order of precedence' for establishing canonicity:

1. Spoken dialogue.
2. Visuals (what we see on-screen)
3. What we hear, excluding spoken dialogue.

In dialogue, we frequently hear 'commander' but as I point out, that could be shorthand for 'lieutenant commander'. As for visuals, we see his actual rank insignia. We also see the opening credits, he is listed as 'Commander Chakotay'. That backs-up your view that he is a full Commander, because the shorthand seems limited to verbal, not written usage.

I am not sure how canonical opening credits can be, because I'm sure we don't accept Voyager ever flew past meters high alphanumeric structures in deep space, but the information contained in them is relevent obviously.

If you want, I could look further for direct quotes etc. That is all we have to go on, IMO, for the dialogue was not crystal clear and costuming isn't reliable. (eg, no one, AFAIK, stated, "Chakotay's a *full* commander." Neither did anyone say "Chakotay is a lt. commander." Thus, I think we *must* examine behind-the-scenes info or exercise common sense. The latter of course, is too subjective.)

I agree that behind-the-scenes information might make this clearer. But if one relies totally on canon, I think there is no clear answer. My own judgement leads me to assume he is a Lieutenant Commander, given his insignia, the fact he is first officer on a relatively small ship and that his insignia was not altered in the first season when three other regular characters' ranks were altered after the costuming problems were corrected.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I voted for Lt. Commander, because it fits both the spoken line and the actual pin.

I also think that Voyager is too small a ship to feature both a Captain and Commander as senior officers. In all honesty, I think Janeway should have been captain of the vessel with a rank of Commander, not Captain (much like Sisko in DS9 season 1).

Other interpretations are equally valid, tho.

 

[Shatnertage]

I think it's Commander, just because I'm used to hearing "Commander Chakotay." People are making compelling arguments for LTC, though.

It's kind of sad that ten years after the show went off the air, we can't say for sure what the rank of the first officer was.

 

[Marten]

I always assumed he was a full commander, but now when you say it, it's not that obvious.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Lieutenant Commander Chakotay. Even if there were a dozen officers of commander or lieutenant commander rank on the Voyager, he would still be called simply "Commander Chakotay" unless someone was making a deliberate point about his rank.

 

[KJbushway]

So, I'm reopening the debate, this time with a poll.

Do we think Chakotay held the (albeit provisional) rank of Lieutenant Commander or Commander?

I think it is Lieutenant Commander:

1. The provisional rank device has two solid gold stripes and one black stripe, apparently equivalent to the two solid and one black pip of a 'regular' Lieutenant Commander.

2. Although Chakotay was never referred to as 'Lieutenant Commander', 'Commander' is commonly used as a short form. Additionally, until Tuvok's promotion, Chakotay was the only officer aboard who was a Lt. Commander, and so with no full Commanders aboard, it was not really necessary to use his full title.

3. We have seen first officers of smaller Starfleet ships holding the rank of or equal rank to Lieutenant Commander. Lt. Cmdr Cavit, for example. Similarly, Major Kira. Major is equivalent to Lieutenant Commander in the US and Commonwealth armies, so it is likely the writers intended it to be the same in Deep Space Nine.

4. After noticing Tuvok's costume error in Season 1 (he wore the insignia of a Lieutenant Commander for several episodes), the creators corrected it by giving him Lieutenant's pips. They also changed Torres and Paris from Lieutenants to Lieutenants (j.g.) As they did not alter Chakotay's insignia to that of a full Commander, we can assume they intended for him to be a Lieutenant Commander.

I thought that he was a commander. No need to debate here is your answer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakotay

 

[Admiral Shran]

I say Commander.

If they had intended him to be a Lt. Commander you would think they would have slipped in at least ONE reference to it somewhere in the seven year run of the show.

As for his rank pips, I think it one of Trek's notorious costuming errors. It's not like VOY was the only series with this problem. Just look at Miles O'Brien - he wore full Lt. pips on TNG, a hollowed out Ensign's pip in early episodes of DS9, and finally an enlisted pip.

 

[PsychoPere]

I'd imagine Janeway granted him the provisional rank equivalent to what he had been at the time he resigned his Starfleet commission. My question, then, would be: is it known if he was a Lieutenant Commander or a full Commander at that time? It looks like he resigned 20 years into his Starfleet career, so either rank would be plausible. The Provisional officers section of the Starfleet ranks entry on Memory Alpha claims he was a LtC when he resigned but cites no source. The entry for Chakotay himself, however, does not make any reference to a Starfleet rank for him pre-provisional status (other than Cadet, of course).

 

[Sam_I_Am]

I thought that he was a commander. No need to debate here is your answer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakotay

Not canon.

 

[James Wright]

I haven't seen Voyager since it finished its' original run but reading the original poster's question got me to thinking.
Were any Voyager Officers addressed as Lieutenant Commander during the entire series run?(Other than the people killed in the first episode.)
Hold it, Tuvok would eventually attain the rank, were there any others?

 

[Sibo191]

I voted Lt Cmdr.

here is why

By 2368, Lt. Cmdr. Chakotay was serving aboard the USS Gettysburg, under the command of Captain Madolyn Gordon. (VOY novel: Pathways)
In March that year, Chakotay decided to resign his commission, so upon his return to Earth he handed his resignation into Admiral Nimembeh at Starfleet Headquarters. He returned home to Trebus. (VOY episode "In the Flesh")

From:http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Chakotay

I know it's non-cannon, but it works for me, It also works well with the idea, also in trek lit, but non-cannon that all officers were promoted 2 steps in rank, Harry, now a full Lt. Tom a Lt. Cmdr, etc. 2 steps above Lt. Cmdr is Captain, his current non-cannon rank.

Additionally, Lt Cmdr doesn't conflict with him being referred to as commander, either on the opening credits, or in dialog. How many time were Dax or Data referred to as Commander?

 

[Cepstrum]

Yes, it's unclear. I can see myself arguing for either interpretation. There are plenty of background notes, scripts, etc referring to him as simply "commander".

*But* as was noted, on-screen evidence is of higher importance. So....

If you look at the entire crew manifest and given, on-screen ranks, there was more than one lt. commander, though most of them had died.


I think it's fairly non-essential. Bottom line: he was the XO by position with a rank of at least lieutenant commander and was the second highest ranking officer on the ship (by position).


One argument for him being a lt. commander (though I believe he was a full commander): the original SF XO was a lt. commander, so Voyager was already used to having one for an XO.


I never really liked the Maquis rank insignia, for they were ad hoc and hard to see. I think Chakotay, being former SF, should have been given regular pips — ie, have his commission temporarily "restored". I guess that might have irked those in his crew who never had had a SF connection, though. But I'd think he be as deserving as Tom was to receive a regular SF field commission. Tom was kicked out, joined the Maquis for thrills/"payoff", whereas Chakotay was honorably discharged by formally resigning.


What puzzles me more is that Tuvok was initially a mere lieutenant. He'd served about 25 years (the second time) and was a pretty high-up guy. Michael Eddington was a lt. commander, and their two roles seemed similar. I'd think that many years of service would get you to at least lt. commander automatically.

 

[C.E. Evans]

What puzzles me more is that Tuvok was initially a mere lieutenant. He'd served about 25 years (the second time) and was a pretty high-up guy. Michael Eddington was a lt. commander, and their two roles seemed similar. I'd think that many years of service would get you to at least lt. commander automatically.

I think it depends on whatever billet one is assigned to and where it fits in an established chain of command. Promotions seem to be one area where Starfleet really differs from today's navies, because there apparently isn't a problem if someone stays at a certain rank for a very long time. Positions seem to carry more weight than actual ranks, IMO, but then some promotions are made simply at the discretion of a commanding officer.

 

[iguana_tonante]

What puzzles me more is that Tuvok was initially a mere lieutenant. He'd served about 25 years (the second time) and was a pretty high-up guy. Michael Eddington was a lt. commander, and their two roles seemed similar. I'd think that many years of service would get you to at least lt. commander automatically.

I think it depends on whatever billet one is assigned to and where it fits in an established chain of command. Promotions seem to be one area where Starfleet really differs from today's navies, because there apparently isn't a problem if someone stays at a certain rank for a very long time. Positions seem to carry more weight than actual ranks, IMO, but then some promotions are made simply at the discretion of a commanding officer.

I've never served so I might be talking rubbish, but I think rank is used to denote responsibility and thus the relative paygrade. In a Federation where that doesn't seem a concern, ranks (and rank promotions) might be much less useful than in current military.

 

[Cepstrum]

There is a screenshot of the crew manifest on a Voyager screen that clearly lists him as commander (and Tuvok as lt. commander).

This caused a *huge* debate on the MA talk page for Chakotay. I suggest if anyone seeks more info, they check there: it's been thoroughly discussed with no definite conclusion.

So I say people can choose for themselves what his actual rank was.


Evidence For LTCDR:

• rank insignia (visual evidence)
• former XO was a lt. commander

Evidence For CMDR:
• *All* spoken dialogue refers to him as simply commander (though that's how lt. commanders are also addressed)
• in "In the Flesh", it's explicitly stated he has the rank of plain commander (along with hid serial number)
• The title screen labeled him as commander
• the computer labeled him as commander
• all behind-the-scenes (AFAIK) info described him as commander
• we don't know for sure that his insignia was that of a lt. commander. We can infer it, but there's no canon evidence stating what the Maquis patches represented. It's common sense, however, to think they're the same as regular ones, suggesting his insignia *was* that of a lt. commander
• there were a lot of costuming errors


So, IMO, the above leads us to nowhere. That's why I think we can each decide for ourselves what his rank was.

For the screen capture showing his commander rank, see the MA talk page.


Goodness. I had no idea it was so confusing! I don't know what to think.

 

[KJbushway]

Yeah I agree, it took me less time to find out he was commander than it did to see he wasn't Lt. commander.

That might not make sense.
I typed in voyager chakotay rank of lt. commander first got no where then typed samething cept for the Lt. commander part.

 

[Cepstrum]

^^^
You're right, I'm afraid. I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you please elaborate? Thanks!

 

[Cepstrum]

Oh, I should add: in my previous post in which I listed evidenced for both sides, it *appears* I weighted heavily in favor of commander. I admit that's how I *prefer* to consider him, but I don't think the evidence points strongly either way.

While my list of evidences for lt. commander was short, the first point means a *lot* (ie, his on-screen insignia seen throughout the series). Furthermore, I noted in some of the evidences for commander that they were not clear-cut.

I don't want to give the impression of undue bias just because *I* happen to like to think of him as a commander.

But if I were going to actually argue this, I could take either side to try to "prove" the case.


My main reason for thinking of him as a full commander is admittedly because of inertia: that's how I'd always thought of him, until now! Still, I think the fact that the LCARS screen showed him as commander, he was credited as playing a commander, his stated rank and serial number included plain commander, behind-the-scenes info lists him as commander (mostly), he was not once referred to as "lt. commander", and we never were told what the Maquis insignia stood for, I believe, all allow me to think of him as a commander with a clean conscience.


I admit, however, the evidence for lt. commander is equally compelling and would not want to try to change anyone's mind who believes he was a lt. commander. It's pretty common sense, really, for the former XO was a lt. commander, at the time he was granted a rank the second officer was only a lieutenant (should mollify the Maquis), his insignia was almost assuredly supposed to represent a lt. commander (just because we weren't told and it was the only such insignia ever seen, it seems consistent with a standard lt. commander's pips), they corrected the mistaken uniform ranks but not his (though adding/removing a pip is easier than making a Maquis patch), and it does *not* affect his authority as second-in-command.


So again I say, why not let everyone choose to believe what they wish about this? I really think further debate will get us nowhere. The data are unsatisfactory for a definitive answer. And it's too late now that VOY is over. Even if we got a new statement from one of the creators (Piller, Taylor, or Berman), I don't think we could accept it as canon (unless they pointed out new, irrefutable evidence).

Oh, one more thing: I'm sorry. Mr. Piller is no longer alive. He is missed. I lost my brother to a terrible traffic "accident" (it was actually no accident, and was a victim of a negligent semi truck that lost its wheel, which flew over of median, striking my brother directly while leaving his co-passenger unharmed. That truck had had numerous previous safety and maintenance violations and citations) three years ago, and the grief doesn't dissipate. I still dream and think of him often. I don't wish to offend the friends and family of Mr. Piller.