Chakotay as the Noble Savage

[exodus]

It reminds me of that song from Music Man - the one Buddy Hackett sings - I had to look it up, but it turns out it's called "Shipoopi," believe it or not. Actually, "Chamoozie" is a much better nonsense word than "Shipoopi." Should that perhaps have been the "Indian" language inventors' first clue that maybe, just m-a-a-a-y-b-e they weren't on quite the right track?

Now you got me thinking of the Family Guy.

 

[Fish1941]

I liked the idea of a Native American crew member, but the writers botched Chakotay badly, I thought.

We are way in the future and Chakotay’s father, and the traditions he passed down, were strictly “old west Indian”. OK, writers, I like to try to work with you, but if Chakotay is a descendant of early Native Americans, then why is he from a tribe called the Anurabi, which never existed? By the way, 'Chakotay' doesn’t mean anything in any Native American language either. If the Anurabi is a tribe that began in our future, why does it have only ancient traditions? And could they do no better than to make the man a stereotype? But not even a good stereotype--they even botched that. His background is sterotypically plains Indian, but he and his father hunt in the rain forest. My head hurts.

I wanted to like the character, but the writers wouldn’t let me. With all the back story they did on him, you'd think that they could have given us something to work with.

OK, I’ll fold my tent for now, and with my braves, shaman, and spirit guide, walk silently from the sweat lodge to the pow wow, where I’ll beat the war drums or smoke the peace pipe, whatever the white-eyes will allow.

Noble savage? Are you kidding? You used a racist term to describe Chakotay's background on the show? No wonder I can't take this topic seriously.

 

[teya]

I liked the idea of a Native American crew member, but the writers botched Chakotay badly, I thought.

We are way in the future and Chakotay’s father, and the traditions he passed down, were strictly “old west Indian”. OK, writers, I like to try to work with you, but if Chakotay is a descendant of early Native Americans, then why is he from a tribe called the Anurabi, which never existed? By the way, 'Chakotay' doesn’t mean anything in any Native American language either. If the Anurabi is a tribe that began in our future, why does it have only ancient traditions? And could they do no better than to make the man a stereotype? But not even a good stereotype--they even botched that. His background is sterotypically plains Indian, but he and his father hunt in the rain forest. My head hurts.

I wanted to like the character, but the writers wouldn’t let me. With all the back story they did on him, you'd think that they could have given us something to work with.

OK, I’ll fold my tent for now, and with my braves, shaman, and spirit guide, walk silently from the sweat lodge to the pow wow, where I’ll beat the war drums or smoke the peace pipe, whatever the white-eyes will allow.

Noble savage? Are you kidding? You used a racist term to describe Chakotay's background on the show? No wonder I can't take this topic seriously.

It's an accurate description of the way Chakotay was written.

 

[JustKate]

^ Yeah, I have to agree. I realize that the writers probably had good PC-New Agey intentions - which counts for a little but not a lot - but they started out with a stereotype. What else could it be since they just dragged in any ol' American Indiana-ish stuff that they found useful and jettisoned anything they didn't? Chakotay wasn't written as "an American Indian." He was (with a few exceptions) written as a stereotype - OK, a positive stereotype, but a stereotype nonetheless, and the name of that stereotype, that archetype, is "The Noble Savage." And how else can you describe a stereotype except by using stereotypical terms?

 

[Guy Gardener]

There's enough hodge podge inauthentic bullshit surrounding his origin that I just might have to call shenanigans and wonder if he's an "Indian" at all? Say 300 years previous some ancestor of his told a white lie to get grant money for scholarship to Princeton?

I mean if Lisa Simpson can think she's passing, why couldn't Chuckles even if he's only a dupe to a lie and not a willing perpetrator of an untruth... Oh, this is exactly how Janeways ancestors lied about Shannon O'Donnel being an Astronaut and how that llie shaped every breathing aspect of Katheryn Janeway's persona: FEARLESS SPACE ADVENTUREESS!!

But then the legend of Jebidiah Springfield was a lie to, did whacking day fade out completely?

(Honestly, I really do have epiphanies half way through sentences, I have no idea what I am about to say next most of the time.)

 

[Praetor]

^ Yeah, I have to agree. I realize that the writers probably had good PC-New Agey intentions - which counts for a little but not a lot - but they started out with a stereotype. What else could it be since they just dragged in any ol' American Indiana-ish stuff that they found useful and jettisoned anything they didn't? Chakotay wasn't written as "an American Indian." He was (with a few exceptions) written as a stereotype - OK, a positive stereotype, but a stereotype nonetheless, and the name of that stereotype, that archetype, is "The Noble Savage." And how else can you describe a stereotype except by using stereotypical terms?

Yes, exactly.

They wanted a protagonist with the flavor of a Native American but didn't want to risk offending anyone and so they didn't bother to create any real substance beyond what they deemed fit, which wasn't much. So, he ended up being a walking stereotype.

 

[Fish1941]

I liked the idea of a Native American crew member, but the writers botched Chakotay badly, I thought.

We are way in the future and Chakotay’s father, and the traditions he passed down, were strictly “old west Indian”. OK, writers, I like to try to work with you, but if Chakotay is a descendant of early Native Americans, then why is he from a tribe called the Anurabi, which never existed? By the way, 'Chakotay' doesn’t mean anything in any Native American language either. If the Anurabi is a tribe that began in our future, why does it have only ancient traditions? And could they do no better than to make the man a stereotype? But not even a good stereotype--they even botched that. His background is sterotypically plains Indian, but he and his father hunt in the rain forest. My head hurts.

I wanted to like the character, but the writers wouldn’t let me. With all the back story they did on him, you'd think that they could have given us something to work with.

OK, I’ll fold my tent for now, and with my braves, shaman, and spirit guide, walk silently from the sweat lodge to the pow wow, where I’ll beat the war drums or smoke the peace pipe, whatever the white-eyes will allow.

Noble savage? Are you kidding? You used a racist term to describe Chakotay's background on the show? No wonder I can't take this topic seriously.

It's an accurate description of the way Chakotay was written.

Chakotay was written as a savage? Really? I don't recall that. Sounds like you're indulging in your own racist view of Native Americans written as protagonists. Nor was Chakotay noble. He had flaws and they were certainly on display throughout the series. Or were you too busy trying fix the label of "noble savage" upon him to notice?


The only thing the writers were guilty of was not giving Chakotay the background of a genuine tribe or nation. That's it. He wasn't noble. He was flawed. And the series certainly made that known.

 

[Zameaze]

Noble savage? Are you kidding? You used a racist term to describe Chakotay's background on the show? No wonder I can't take this topic seriously.

It's an accurate description of the way Chakotay was written.

Chakotay was written as a savage? Really? I don't recall that. Sounds like you're indulging in your own racist view of Native Americans written as protagonists.

I understand how the term "noble savage" could be misinterpreted. The term "noble savage", however, speaks to the essential goodness of man unencumbered by civilization. It is far from a slur--it's an idealization.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Idealizing a race is still racism.

"Chinese are good at math"

"Gays know about fashion."

"Black people play basketball excellently."

"Swedes are fantastic lovers"

"Germans are tidy."

But does that mean that we shouldn't pick our battles, that intent shouldn't be applicable since a laughably inexact hodgepodge of stereotypes like Chakotay shouldn't be as magnetic as necessary for as many misleading clichés about native Americans out there, good and bad because Voyagers writers are twits?

 

[Zameaze]

Idealizing a race is still racism.

But you're missing the point--"noble savage" does not refer to any race but rather to the concept of man being basically good when unencumbered by civilization.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Chakotay is a noble savage, and Chakotay is an Indian, then all indians are savages. Further, some savage Indians are noble savage Indians and other Indians are savage savage Indians.

Even the word "Indian" is offensive but it takes so damn long to type native American, and I really dislike using the same pronouns over and over again.

I'd say "Noble Savage" is more condescending than racist, but then my opinion barely matters in thee areas, and condescension is just another way of being offensive which brings us back to the first principle.

 

[Sci]

Chakotay was written as a savage? Really? I don't recall that. Sounds like you're indulging in your own racist view of Native Americans written as protagonists.

No one is saying that Chakotay was written as a savage. The term "Noble Savage" is a term used to refer to a specific stereotype of Native Americans and Africans perpetuated by Europeans who idealized their cultures as being somehow "uncivilized" and therefore somehow morally superior to European cultures -- though even this stereotype merely served to reenforce European systems of domination.

Chakotay can be said to fit the "Noble Savage" stereotype insofar as his culture's spirituality -- such as it was -- was depicted as being a superior way of achieving enlightenment and insight to those of the other Federation characters because his people were "closer to the land" or some such nonsense. There was an implication that the fact that Chakotay's culture wasn't as technological meant that it was somehow more "authentic" than the other UFP cultures.

 

[Orac Zen]

Chakotay was written as a savage? Really? I don't recall that. Sounds like you're indulging in your own racist view of Native Americans written as protagonists.

The "Noble Savage"trope has been around for centuries. No one is attempting to apply racist overtones to this discussion.


To say I'm not a fan of the Chakotay character (such as it was) would be a gross understatement. The way said character was written was only one of the reasons.

 

[exodus]

Noble savage? Are you kidding? You used a racist term to describe Chakotay's background on the show? No wonder I can't take this topic seriously.

It's an accurate description of the way Chakotay was written.

Chakotay was written as a savage? Really? I don't recall that. Sounds like you're indulging in your own racist view of Native Americans written as protagonists.

Ummm, not really likely considering Teya is Native American herself.

 

[teya]

^ Not the first time someone's called me a racist on this board, and probably won't be the last.

 

[teya]

Even the word "Indian" is offensive but it takes so damn long to type native American, and I really dislike using the same pronouns over and over again.

"Indian" isn't offensive, just inaccurate. But we were called Indians for hundreds of years, so most of us have no problem with the word.

 

[Lynx]

Unfortunately Star Trek has other stereotypes as well. Picard (he's a Frenchman so of course his family are wine-producers), Chekov (almost a parody of a Russian from the 50's), Scotty (a bit stereotypical Scotsman), Kim (Asian stereotype but did he have Korean or Chinese ancestors. Kim is a Korean name but the guy is full of Chinese expressions. I mean, there is some difference between Koreans and Chinese when it comes to language, culture and everything). I've read somewhere that Colm Meaney fought hard to not letting O'Brien become an Irish stereotype.

As for semantics, it can be difficult to know what to write sometimes without insulting anyone. When it comes to Indians or Native Americans, I used to write "Native Americans" but I saw that teya is often using the word "Indians" so I thought that it must be OK.

Most of the time I use the words "white" and "black" to describe people of European and African heritage since it seem to be the most common used words. I've read that some years back the term "colored" was used about black people but I do find that word slightly offensive.

 

[exodus]

^ Not the first time someone's called me a racist on this board, and probably won't be the last.

Me too.

Back to Trek:
However, these mistakes with race and cultures are due IMO for one reason: people are to afraid or ashamed to ask questions. Had they simply asked around, considering how multi-cultural L.A. is, they would have gotten answers to prevent these mis-steps.

Most issues can be solved by asking questions and not assuming.
Same applies to online when people are quick to label one racist or homophobic without ever knowing a thing about them.

 

[Praetor]

Teya and exodus, I can't believe anyone would call either of you a racist.

I can be forgiving towards TOS since that was so many years ago and since Chekov was primarily created as a double-answer to Soviet criticism of the lack of a Russian character and to attract a young demographic. At least Sulu and Uhura didn't have fake accents.

However, modern Trek productions should have learned more than to simply "insert token here."

I'll also echo what Lynx said above about wanting to be sensitive and often not feeling like I know the "right" term to use. I grew up with "white," "black," and "Indian" in common use, but as I got older "Caucasian," "African-American," and "Native American" came to the forefront, so I often have to catch myself. Bottom line, I don't want to accidentally offend anyone. Personal attacks are very distasteful; accidental ones are almost worse.

 

[teya]

Sounds like you're indulging in your own racist view of Native Americans written as protagonists.

Just wanted to address this...

I prefer my American Indian protagonists to be, well, recognizeable indigenous Americans.

I'm thinking Thomas & Victor from "Smoke Signals."

I'm thinking the hero of "Atanarjuat."

There are others.

So if it's racist to prefer to see real Native Americans on screen, consider me a racist.