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CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

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ThankYouGeneR said:
FIFY: "Sir, it's dead as far as I and the people I think think like me, like what I like, don't like what I don't like."


Die hard fan --> Me <--
I know mannnnnyyyy 'die hard' fans OffLine who, like Me<--die hard fan, enjoy in varying degrees each of the Star Trek movies & now Discovery as they've been presented since 2009. The majority. The overwhelming majority. My observation OnLine is the 'numbers' of people posting comments saying they, as fans, also enjoy in varying degrees each of the Star Trek movies & now Discovery as they've been been presented since 2009 is greater than the number of posters reflecting your taste. Why, or maybe How, would I observe that? What, am I everywhere on the Internet?

Certainly a good question to ask.

When my (<--die hard fan) now favorite Star Trek movie, ST2009, was released I was hammered by (quote)die hard fans(end quote).... online. Crushed and beaten down by OnLine people when I even mentioned I 'liked' it. On the other hand my large real time Star Trek community who do 'not' post on line.... to a person really liked -to- loved that movie.

hmmm...

And when Into Darkness arrived it was the same for me -- online dislike -to- hated that movie. My real time community like -to- loved it.

And online it was indicated to me, at me, and around me, by (quote)die hard fans(end quote) that I would have to be a mouth breathing seat filling popcorn crunching person who'll just watch anything. Sounds like a no holds barred insult to me.

Which, you know, pissed me off on several levels:
-Mouth breather? Disrespecting those who through no fault of their own are intellectually challenged? Or those persons with a significant enough breathing problem that they breathe through an open mouth to get enough Oxygen?
-Seat filling? wtf is wrong with that I say? Many people actually love MOVIES as such. The theater, the big screen. Escapism in the nicest way. Did you know that during the Great Depression (the 1930s) the poor and poorer would save and scrape the pennies it took to see a movie to give them a couple of hours of wonderful escapism from the despair of their real lives.
-Popcorn crunching? Of Course Popcorn Crunching!
-Are they saying 'I' don't have any taste and/or recognition of production values/story/acting/etc. because I love something they don't.

<time travel back to the 60s where I was mocked for liking Star Trek because 'they' didn't>

So I Went On-line Researching To See Just Why My Real Time Was Different In The Extreme To My OnLine Experience. And I researched the heck out of it. Scouring every site that had a comment section I could find for weeks... counting likes and dislikes. Actually copy/pasting the Like/Dislike quotes to keep track of. (If it was the same poster posting a Like/Dislike again it didn't count for my research.)

My observation caused me to conclude the Likes/Dislikes were around 12/1 'like' online too. Quite similar to my Real Time Experience. With the Like people usually posting only once as far as I was able to tell and the Dislike people posting their dislike over and over and over and over and over and over and over (repeat ad nauseam). Giving the illusion the Public At Large couldn't stand the new stuff.

And to a bit lesser degree I continued to research Beyond and now Discovery Real Time & OnLine. My observations are still holding; Likes are way more & and Dislikes are way louder.

So let's return to this:
"Die hard fans are not looking to break or kill the franchise (Sir, it's dead already)."

My observation is that that is inaccurate.

But this would be accurate:
"Sir, it's dead as far as I (<-you) and the people I think think like me, like what I like, don't like what I don't like."

Captains
Series
Movies

Merely a matter of taste couched in opinion that is impacted by each person's life and experiences.

In fifty years do you have any idea of how many times (and how many prophets have cried) Star Trek is dead? Let's just mention "You can't have Star Trek without Kirk/Spock/Bones!!!!!!!!!" It's dead, Jim. Dead.

Or let's see... "It can't be Star Trek if it's not on a spaceship!!!!!!!!!" It's dead, Jim. Dead. Really dead now!

"A WOMAN CAPTAIN????!!!!!!!!!" It's dead, Jim. Dead. The end. Over.

"A prequel with 'that' ship & 'those' Klingon heads & Temporal Wars???!!!!!!" It's dead, Jim. Deader than a door nail. Dead Dead Dead.

"The Kelvin Timeline????!!!!!" Same song, 62nd verse: It's dead, Jim. It was dead before but now it's sooooo dead.

"Discovery?????" Same ole Star Trek song we've been singing for fifty years; it's dead, Jim. It's dead. Again.




:) Nope. (says the die hard fan who was watching Star Trek September 8, l966)
Click to expand...

Just because something is dead doesn't mean they can't make it sing and dance, plus the people who don't like Star Trek anymore simply don't watch it anymore in silence and don't usually come here but cater to real life.
 
ThankYouGeneR said:
FIFY: "Sir, it's dead as far as I and the people I think think like me, like what I like, don't like what I don't like."


Die hard fan --> Me <--
I know mannnnnyyyy 'die hard' fans OffLine who, like Me<--die hard fan, enjoy in varying degrees each of the Star Trek movies & now Discovery as they've been presented since 2009. The majority. The overwhelming majority. My observation OnLine is the 'numbers' of people posting comments saying they, as fans, also enjoy in varying degrees each of the Star Trek movies & now Discovery as they've been been presented since 2009 is greater than the number of posters reflecting your taste. Why, or maybe How, would I observe that? What, am I everywhere on the Internet?

Certainly a good question to ask.

When my (<--die hard fan) now favorite Star Trek movie, ST2009, was released I was hammered by (quote)die hard fans(end quote).... online. Crushed and beaten down by OnLine people when I even mentioned I 'liked' it. On the other hand my large real time Star Trek community who do 'not' post on line.... to a person really liked -to- loved that movie.

hmmm...

And when Into Darkness arrived it was the same for me -- online dislike -to- hated that movie. My real time community like -to- loved it.

And online it was indicated to me, at me, and around me, by (quote)die hard fans(end quote) that I would have to be a mouth breathing seat filling popcorn crunching person who'll just watch anything. Sounds like a no holds barred insult to me.

Which, you know, pissed me off on several levels:
-Mouth breather? Disrespecting those who through no fault of their own are intellectually challenged? Or those persons with a significant enough breathing problem that they breathe through an open mouth to get enough Oxygen?
-Seat filling? wtf is wrong with that I say? Many people actually love MOVIES as such. The theater, the big screen. Escapism in the nicest way. Did you know that during the Great Depression (the 1930s) the poor and poorer would save and scrape the pennies it took to see a movie to give them a couple of hours of wonderful escapism from the despair of their real lives.
-Popcorn crunching? Of Course Popcorn Crunching!
-Are they saying 'I' don't have any taste and/or recognition of production values/story/acting/etc. because I love something they don't.

<time travel back to the 60s where I was mocked for liking Star Trek because 'they' didn't>

So I Went On-line Researching To See Just Why My Real Time Was Different In The Extreme To My OnLine Experience. And I researched the heck out of it. Scouring every site that had a comment section I could find for weeks... counting likes and dislikes. Actually copy/pasting the Like/Dislike quotes to keep track of. (If it was the same poster posting a Like/Dislike again it didn't count for my research.)

My observation caused me to conclude the Likes/Dislikes were around 12/1 'like' online too. Quite similar to my Real Time Experience. With the Like people usually posting only once as far as I was able to tell and the Dislike people posting their dislike over and over and over and over and over and over and over (repeat ad nauseam). Giving the illusion the Public At Large couldn't stand the new stuff.

And to a bit lesser degree I continued to research Beyond and now Discovery Real Time & OnLine. My observations are still holding; Likes are way more & and Dislikes are way louder.

So let's return to this:
"Die hard fans are not looking to break or kill the franchise (Sir, it's dead already)."

My observation is that that is inaccurate.

But this would be accurate:
"Sir, it's dead as far as I (<-you) and the people I think think like me, like what I like, don't like what I don't like."

Captains
Series
Movies

Merely a matter of taste couched in opinion that is impacted by each person's life and experiences.

In fifty years do you have any idea of how many times (and how many prophets have cried) Star Trek is dead? Let's just mention "You can't have Star Trek without Kirk/Spock/Bones!!!!!!!!!" It's dead, Jim. Dead.

Or let's see... "It can't be Star Trek if it's not on a spaceship!!!!!!!!!" It's dead, Jim. Dead. Really dead now!

"A WOMAN CAPTAIN????!!!!!!!!!" It's dead, Jim. Dead. The end. Over.

"A prequel with 'that' ship & 'those' Klingon heads & Temporal Wars???!!!!!!" It's dead, Jim. Deader than a door nail. Dead Dead Dead.

"The Kelvin Timeline????!!!!!" Same song, 62nd verse: It's dead, Jim. It was dead before but now it's sooooo dead.

"Discovery?????" Same ole Star Trek song we've been singing for fifty years; it's dead, Jim. It's dead. Again.




:) Nope. (says the die hard fan who was watching Star Trek September 8, l966)
Click to expand...
I've been making a point of paying closer attention to who is ripping on the Kelvin movies and Disco on here, and I've noticed it's actually just the same handful of posters who start ranting and raving every time someone brings them up, rather than the tons of people I originally thought it was.
The people who like them, tend to respond once or twice and then move on, while the anti people just keep posting, and posting and posting.
 
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JD said:
I've been making a point of paying closer attention to who is ripping on the Kelvin movies and Disco on here, and I've noticed it's actually just the same handful of posters who start ranting and raving every time someone brings them up, rather than the tons of people I originally thought it was.
The people who like them, tend to respond once or twice and then move, while the anti people just keep posting, and posting and posting.
Click to expand...
That's the large part of why i soured on Axanar. It wasn't just new Trek that people wanted. It became the anti-JJ Trek movement buoyed up by the vocal minority that they were the torchbearers of "true Trek." And, sadly, that continues on. So, rather than find a common enjoyment in a franchise, there is just an enemy to tear down.
 
JD said:
I've been making a point of paying closer attention to who is ripping on the Kelvin movies and Disco on here, and I've noticed it's actually just the same handful of posters who start ranting and raving every time someone brings them up, rather than the tons of people I originally thought it was.
The people who like them, tend to respond once or twice and then move, while the anti people just keep posting, and posting and posting.
Click to expand...
Heyyy. :beer:

Okay, backstory for a second about my reply to you.

Had wanted to cruse TheThread for some highlights, but it is HUGE, humongous, tooooo much to peruse before it's closed on Pg. 1701..... so had to resort to going through only my own list of postings here (which is plenty long all by itself) to get an idea of the [chapters] I went through while here (since I entered TheThread on January 11, 2016.. wbtw was already on page 217 for that date.)

Then this computer blipped me you'd quoted me while I was reading a post of mine on Pg 985 in which I had copied a small section of my previously mention Research on Likes/Dislikes.

The voices of just a teeny tiny itsy bitsy few of the many many many of WE trekkies, longterm trekkies, trekkers, fans, historic trekkies/trekkers/fans who think differently than that assessment:

-"I am a life long fan of trek and I LOVE what JJ and team have done."

-"I’m an old Trekkie myself. I couldn’t wait to see the first one. I had a boss at work who loved ST too and we discussed this new movie for weeks! I loved how the first one gave answers to many old questions. I loved how they gave the alternate time-line idea."

-"I don’t know who these TOS fans are who supposedly voted that the film sucked, but I’ve been a dyed-in-the-wool Trekker since the day the series fist appeared on TV, so I consider myself somewhat of an expert on TOS. What Abrams did was nothing short of miraculous."

-"I’m an unabashed Trekkie. And, I loved Star Trek Into Darkness"

-"Action and blockbusters are not incompatible with good stories or moral dilemmas, criticism of issues of our time and morality plays, as Star Trek Into Darkness has proved so well. (And while indeed some so-called ‘fans’ do revile the new movies, the best elements of TOS are present all over STID"

-"As for 'JJ Trek' as it's been called by many, LOVE IT - it really does go back to what the core of Star Trek originally was - action/adventure with a little bit of occasional social commentary"

-"Speaking as a lifelong trek fan, and having watched all the series franchises and films, I for one will be looking forward greatly to the next in the brilliantly rejuvenated Star Trek film series!"

-"I have been a Trekkie all my life, I have watched every episode and movie and these new movies are a breath of fresh air, I have to take my hat off to he as they are a work of genius"

-"I am an old fan, in my 50s in fact. I watched the original series when it was first aired, all the films, then TNG, DS9 etc. I have original manuals from my childhood, new manuals, action figures and more. The new films are great."

-"I was raised on Star Trek (all series) and loved it growing up. My mother even wrote and received a response from Gene Roddenberry himself. He had developed such a wonderful “franchise” and a beautiful outlook to a future. I am ecstatic that this wonderful show has been revitalized for new fans and old alike and believe that Abrams has done a remarkable job in making it available and worthy."

-"I am a Trekkie! I have been one since day one of Star Trek in the 60’s. I have seen all the movies. When Next Generation came out, people complained. This was the same to Deep Space 9, Voyager & Enterprise. I personally like the reboot. No, it is not like the original. It was never intended to be like the original. When I watched the first in 2009 I kept an open mind. I like what I saw. It is a new look on an old plot. Thanks JJ for what you have done. I love them both."

-"I love the original movies & I also love the reboot"

-"As a long time Star Trek fan, I loved the two movies, and the idea of an alternate time-line."

-"Am I gonna be shot out an airlock if I say I enjoyed both."

-"As a fan of trek new and old, finding them both great in very different ways, i wish people would stop acting like just because they didn’t like a movie that it “ruined everything.” Ok, you don’t like it fine, but guess what, there are hundreds of episodes and nine movies you can enjoy, maybe stop trying to rain on other people’s parade with hate-spewing nonsense. This is how i solved my dislike of “star trek the motion picture” … I never watched it again. It was really simple."

-"my kids , 16 & 18, were raised on the original stuff and also love these movies. That says much about real Trekkies"

-"I was a Star Trek fan since I was born. I remember back in the 70’s watching it at my grandfather’s house religiously. I have the whole series and movies on DVD and I still love them and watch them to this day with my son. I love the NU-Trek"

-"Have been a fan since first seeing original series as child. Lived through reruns, films, spinoffs. Everyone has their own opinions and perceptions, but the new films I liked. They fit in with my conception of ST, they sat well with me."

-"I watched and loved TOS in the 60s. That being said, I liked STID. People I know of various ages and varying degrees of ST "fanhood" liked it as well."

-"I am in my 66th year, I have watched ALL the Star Trek series and films and can advise that this film combines a serious reflection of William Shatner's portrayal of James T. Kirk but also matures Chris Pine as the film progresses. As Roddenberry was closely involved with original Star Trek series I therefore believe that he would approve the direction that Abrams is taking the latest incarnation of Star Trek. It is rich in plot detail and exciting to watch."

-"As someone who has grown up with the franchise, watched every show and every movie (I've watched the entire DS9 series at least twice!), suffered through characters/actors who I didn't care for. That being said? I LOVED this movie. I even capitalized it I loved it so much. I am already excited for the next movie. I will outright admit I more than teared up during the climactic scene in the engine room. I have already come to care about, respect and enjoy the new actors in their iconic roles. So yes, ten out of ten. I will boldly go and embrace the new with a continued reverence for the old."

-"As a long term trek fan, who has been a HUGE fan of all things this franchise has to offer, and knows a fair amount of the extra background this movie is great. Easily one of the best Star Trek Movies ever." [<--referring to Star Trek Into Darkness]

-"I'm a devoted Star Trek fan and have seen almost every episode of every series, all seasons, plus all Star Trek movies, multiple times. This movie was absolutely enthralling." [<--referring to STID]

-"I watched the original Star Trek TV series, starting from episode 1 of the first season, when I was a boy. I've loved Star Trek in its various incarnations ever since, including these two recent movies by J.J. Abrams. "

-"Trekkie. Maybe one or two other times in my life have I wanted to stand up in the theater or my living room (or wherever I was watching whatever I was watching) and root for a character so badly. The line from the trailer sums it all up. "Is there anything you would not do for your family?" This movie shows exactly how much of a family they truly are and I could not have been happier with this film. By the way I NEVER see a movie multiple times in theaters due to the obscene prices, but I was willing to go three times to see this film, if that tells you anything."

-" I love Star Trek and Science Fiction in general. I re-watched all Star Trek movies more times than I would care to admit. I know, or at least I'm convinced that I know, what Star Trek is about. I loved the Star Trek reboot, first in 2009 and now its sequel Into Darkness. It's all there. The moral dilemma, the friendship theme, the human weakness, the human brilliance, the strong and emotional characters, the philosophical theme."

-"I grew up with the original Star Trek so the Enterprise has a very fond place in my heart. I just absolutely love the latest versions of the ship"

-"I'll just say that I've been with Star Trek for my whole life and I loved those moments [re TWOK twists/call backs]. Most of my Trekker friends are of a similar mind"

Nice huh!

I agree with you when you say "The people who like them, tend to respond once or twice and then move, while the anti people just keep posting, and posting and posting."

So thiswholething in TheThread exacerbates that lopsided view of fandom at large because as @jespah just wrote "The demographic with the most dissatisfaction with the Kelvin timeline coinciding with the demographic for loving and financially supporting fan films"

And they're loud about dissatisfaction with the Kelvin timeline AND keyboarding the Internet to death over thiswholething and everything that's wrong is that this glorious wonderful happy true trek of theirs and its visionary are being trek blocked by KelvinTimeline/Paramount/CBS.

Yup. I find it's nice to remind myself now and then that there are other sides to fandom. One of them is filled with fans like the posters I listed above.
 
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jespah said:
This feels close to the truth. There was a kind of perfect storm for fundraising there
Click to expand...
Just to add a thought.
Fans through social funding felt donating could effect the future of Star Trek. I have a vague memory of a rumor or two that a fan film might be or was in talks to be picked up by CBS/Paramount. I don't know if any of these rumors came from the production or excited supporters but it seemed to help spur the fund raising.
In a way Peters proved that this will never happen in the near future, so why donate just to become an early supporter of the next human adventure?
 
Over the last few pages, there's been some discussion about the kind of Trek LFIM wanted to make and the merits of such, good, bad and otherwise. That said, I feel like this opinion (shared by various others multiple times already) bears repeating.

The concept of 'Prelude' and Axanar as a whole is interesting on the surface. There's obviously a sub-set of fans who are still interested in the Prime universe and the kind of intrigue perpetuated by Cold-War era RPGs like FASA. Personally, this is the 'sandbox' I prefer to 'play in' myself when it comes to my blog (where I do a "Jane's Guide To....." take on starships & such).

The problem is obviously, LFIM himself. Not only has he consistently misread and overstated the discontent that some have with the JJ films and Discovery, he's also misread and massively overstated the interest there is in the kind of prime universe Trek he suggested Axanar would be (yeah, yeah.......TWOK was good and some of those FASA plots were interesting, but its not the end-all, be-all.....).

If that wasn't bad enough, his personality and various neuroses (which have been debated/dissected here ad nauseum) completely torpedoed things early on. His close minded desire for control (see the TZ interview of Christian Gossett), blatantly abrasive/abusive attitude (in some instances, making the POTUS look like the Dali Lama) and constant obsfucation of facts fanned the flames of this C.F. until it finally exploded (C/P issuing their fan film guidelines). Then of course, there are the issues of money and possible fraud (various people have brought up his failed business history at multiple points in this thread).

So yeah, the concept itself had promise and it might've even turned out halfway decent. However the guy with the idea, for multiple reasons already stated, ensured that it would never come to fruition. Had someone else come up with the idea, all of this might have never happened.
 
dmac said:
Just to add a thought.
Fans through social funding felt donating could effect the future of Star Trek. I have a vague memory of a rumor or two that a fan film might be or was in talks to be picked up by CBS/Paramount. I don't know if any of these rumors came from the production or excited supporters but it seemed to help spur the fund raising.
Click to expand...
I'm not positive but I believe they team behind Renegades did meet with Paramount, but were turned down.
 
JD said:
I'm not positive but I believe they team behind Renegades did meet with Paramount, but were turned down.
Click to expand...
Well could have been. I can't comment much because I didn't take notes.
CAUTION
Product may appear awesome in epic visions
 
TREKZONE.org said:
I can fault him for acting like a teenager on social media.
Click to expand...
You need to qualify this sentence just a little more. I know many teenagers that behave much better than he does. He acts more like an immature teenager. Or, maybe he is smarter than that and is more like a malicious teenager.

I think a term from the old days describes him best. ... "Confidence Man"

In those bygone days, a confidence man could move on to another town where they never heard of him. But, in today's time and the the sphere he is roving in, there is only one town and he is running out of suckers to swindle.

It boggles my mind the hear there is more than a million dollars wasted. Instead of being so arrogant, he should be on his knees begging forgiveness. Well, maybe he is saving that one for his final con to get the last of the suckers.
 
Steven P Bastien said:
In those bygone days, a confidence man could move on to another town where they never heard of him. But, in today's time and the the sphere he is roving in, there is only one town and he is running out of suckers to swindle.
Click to expand...
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Someone above mentioned LFIM suggesting Tommy Kraft bought views. Not to smack a hornet's nest, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone tried to pay for views to get their film noticed. The way YouTube works, the more views you have the more you get recommended, which generally leads to more views. If anyone was going to go that route, I'd have suspected Alec.

But how do you determine that? Some people try to look at the comments-to-views ratio (C2VR) to see if a video's views appear to have been artificially pumped up, but as Carlos and I discussed a while back, it's easy to misintrepret that. For instance, the C2VR for Prelude is similar to those for Farragut's "The Price of Anything" and Exeter's TTI, but Horizon's is almost a quarter of that, which looks damning until you see that it's in the same low-ish C2VR range as NV's "Enemy Starfleet". A single data point is too small to be of any use at all, and likely misleading.
 
JD said:
I'm not positive but I believe they team behind Renegades did meet with Paramount, but were turned down.
Click to expand...
I remember them meeting with CBS, but do not recall a meeting with Paramount. After meeting with CBS, the Renegades team announced:

"As promised to our backers, we engaged the top entertainment attorney in LA who has exceptional connections to CBS and Paramount. For reasons we are not able to disclose, CBS cannot move forward with Star Trek Renegades at this time – or any Star Trek series for that matter."
 
Yeah - it's kind of a difficult point to prove. I imagine - hope! - YT can tell if someone has bought views or at least if they would have a good idea of such. They are undoubtedly tracking IPs and so if a suspiciously large number of views are coming from IPs either directly linked to view sales or similar (as an unethical company such as that might be using a block of IPs), then YT should have a strong case for saying a particular channel was buying views. A meteoric rise in views, particularly from a channel that doesn't normally have that, would be a part of such evidence as well.
 
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