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CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

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Okay for intra-US calls, but Australia to California? Why would someone not in the US be forced to abide by US law? What would they do, force an extradition so the guy could be tried in the USA? Sounds weird to me!

The requirement of a citizen of a different nation to abide by a California or United States federal law would depend upon the treaties which exist between the US and that foreign nation. If the crime fits the need to extradite, the US and allied nations have arrangements to move suspects from one nation to another. The nuances of extradition have nothing to do with this board.

But, if you note, I was not recommending that a judicial proceeding or complaint be filed against the reporter from Australia. I was raising concerns about the rights of ALL parties in the interview and the behavior of parties in this thread.

For one thing, the loudest and most vocal people in this thread neither appear to be shareholders of CBS nor interested parties in Axanar.

So, why the attempt by these people to raise concerns and fears over CBS' behavior at all?

Are some people in this thread concerned about Loeb & Loeb dropping a letter to other productions? If so, specifically why the timing of these concerns being aired just as Star Trek Continues is wrapping up their own IndieGoGo campaign?

Coincidence? Probably not.
 
I don't think it matters anyway because, as it has been stated repeatedly, LFIM Alec Peters had absolute control of the camera on his end. He could have ended the interview at any time, regardless of OTR status.

I'm not "trained as an attorney," but this seems pretty well cut and dried.

You are correct.
The issue of "on/off the record" is a straw man argument raised by Hinman.
It's totally irrelevant to the issue of a violation of Section 631 of the California Penal Code.
As I stated in the original message (and for some reason left somewhat ignored by both Hinman and Pedraza) was the last line), Peters had the responsibility to tell his PR man that he was being recorded because it was Peters who called the PR guy.

Therefore, I raised the question (so far left totally unanswered) of whether or not the PR guy had been informed that he was being recorded.

If he was not informed, then the video tape is evidence of a violation of California Penal Code Section 631.

If he was informed, then the situation is not a concern.

The issue is that when a person from California is being recorded, all parties to the call must be informed.

More significantly, the facts obtained during the wiretap must be dismissed from judicial proceedings.

In this respect, the rights and interests of CBS or Viacom shareholders are not served well by either Mr. Hinman's behavior or Mr. Pedraza's behavior. The Section 631 statute was published for a reason.

I urge Mr. Hinman and Mr. Pedraza to please stop interfering and stop reporting on this matter. You are doing a disservice to yourself and all parties involved.
 
You are correct.
The issue of "on/off the record" is a straw man argument raised by Hinman.
It's totally irrelevant to the issue of a violation of Section 631 of the California Penal Code.
As I stated in the original message (and for some reason left somewhat ignored by both Hinman and Pedraza) was the last line), Peters had the responsibility to tell his PR man that he was being recorded because it was Peters who called the PR guy.

Therefore, I raised the question (so far left totally unanswered) of whether or not the PR guy had been informed that he was being recorded.

If he was not informed, then the video tape is evidence of a violation of California Penal Code Section 631.

If he was informed, then the situation is not a concern.

The issue is that when a person from California is being recorded, all parties to the call must be informed.

More significantly, the facts obtained during the wiretap must be dismissed from judicial proceedings.

In this respect, the rights and interests of CBS or Viacom shareholders are not served well by either Mr. Hinman's behavior or Mr. Pedraza's behavior. The Section 631 statute was published for a reason.

I urge Mr. Hinman and Mr. Pedraza to please stop interfering and stop reporting on this matter. You are doing a disservice to yourself and all parties involved.
I think that's a little dramatic. :lol:

They have every right to express opinion and comment on the situation as they understand it, using past experience and common sense as a guide.

This isn't a court of law, but it is the court of public opinion.

I doubt that any opinion or analysis posted by any layperson here has any effect on the case one way or the other. We are simply following the case and commenting on the details as they pop up.

And having a little fun at LFIM's expense. ;)
 
So, you want to muzzle two of the most thorough independent reporters of this whole Axa-mess? I wouldn't bet on that happening.
Thorough?

After reading their blogs and comments, they're irresponsible. It isn't that I want to totally muzzle them. They just need to think through their words and their behavior a bit better.

Regarding the timing of their "news report" on the 1701 blog, the timing of the Trek Zone interview, and the timing of the multiple postings I see on multiple Star Trek related blogs and social media platforms, the timing looks awfully coincidental in that it appears contemporaneous to and possibly competing with the messages from Star Trek Continues supporters who are actively attempting to raise funds through IndieGoGo.

The mixed messages take time to resolve and most people are too lazy to pick apart the differences in the cases.

Hinman and Pedraza's comments on the CBS v. Axanar case also creates issues for CBS itself.

After reading the California Penal Code today, the interview with Peters could impact the case because Peters is a party to the case and the Penal Code Section 631 states the following:

Except as proof in an action or prosecution for violation of this section, no evidence obtained in violation of this section shall be admissible in any judicial, administrative, legislative, or other proceeding.
See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-631.html

Peters was recorded, had stated that he was off the record, and it was clear that he was talking to a PR guy via phone. Peters can now claim that he thought he was off the record and he was the victim of a Section 631 violation. Their attorneys will certainly attempt to use this interview to defend their client. This interview has created a loophole for Peters and yet another problem for CBS and its shareholders.

Therefore, both Hinman and Pedraza really need to tread more carefully here.
 
To the point raised earlier, to the effect that Klingon is a system and idea and therefore all circumstances of its origin or context are moot, it cannot be copyrighted, based upon:

The Copyright Act does not extend protection in a work to “any
idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept,
principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described,
explained, illustrated, or embodied in such a work.”

A thought experiment. For a moment, require that Klingon be called [your least favorite politician]speak. Require that the backstory "cultural" concepts from which the "uniquely expressible only in Klingon" qualities arise which come from Trek IP, be replaced with only concepts from the backstories and sayings of said politician.

You get to keep the dictionary and script and grammar, except of course the Trek-IP originated idioms need to be shifted to the politician's tropes, and at your gatherings you need to dress up like the politician ;).

Is the language still Klingon?

If not, why not?

And if not, how can it claim to be anything other than an extension of Star Trek story elements?

I do not study Klingon. I couldn't answer the above question. But I would like to see anyone speaking Klingon answer it (without dismissing it as irrelevant).

The AC filing notes that although important literary works have been translated to Klingon, the meaning has to change to conform with backstory concepts about Klingon culture. Japanese MacBeth was first translated with all the cultural references shifted. But Japanese had its own independent cultural history to draw upon. Klingon it seems only has stories and character qualities written by the studios.

In fact, the AC filing repeatedly references Klingon's unique qualities, and every one of them are concepts created by Trek. Fans are adding "Klingon culture" backstory to this language (the AC brief for example refers to the Klingon Language Institute quarterly academic journal studying Klingon linguistics, language, and culture). Changes to Klingon must be approved by a very small group of keepers of the Klingon flame. So is all this extension kept in alignment with the Klingon backstories from Trek, and carefully amplifying it, or has Klingon disowned those backstory elements and become something else, a language that can stand on its own without Trek IP?

You may ask why does this matter. My view is if fans are extending the studio - created language with stories and Klingon "culture" concepts taken directly from the foundation of "Klingon culture" stories created by the studio without participating in studio copyright, and saying its ok because "language is a system [loophole]", then it seems to me little different from Axanar claiming that copyright does not apply to them, even though their work is 100% dependent on freely and deeply using the backstory elements of the Trek universe, because there is the "loophole" that fan films are not in practise required to participate in licensing copyrights on Trek, and because Axanar is the true keeper of the real meaning of Trek.

With regard to copyright, I therefore believe it is a misapplication of the definitions of "system and idea" to say that Klingon is only or mainly a system or idea promoting a useful science or art (U.S. Const. Art. I, § 8, cl. 8., as cited by the AC brief). Klingon, to me, is a story element of Trek both now and in its origin, because as far as I can tell from what people say about it, it originates from and seems to be kept in logical continuity with the "culture" of the stories written by Trek authors, and cannot be separated from those story elements without losing its identity.

Of course, this is all just my take, and I am not an attorney. As I said earlier, CBS would be wise to limit their Klingon claims and not enter this sideshow. But if they do, I think this is a reasonable interpretation of why their argument might have merit in the case of Klingon.
 
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Thorough?

After reading their blogs and comments, they're irresponsible. It isn't that I want to totally muzzle them. They just need to think through their words and their behavior a bit better.

Regarding the timing of their "news report" on the 1701 blog, the timing of the Trek Zone interview, and the timing of the multiple postings I see on multiple Star Trek related blogs and social media platforms, the timing looks awfully coincidental in that it appears contemporaneous to and possibly competing with the messages from Star Trek Continues supporters who are actively attempting to raise funds through IndieGoGo.

The mixed messages take time to resolve and most people are too lazy to pick apart the differences in the cases.

Hinman and Pedraza's comments on the CBS v. Axanar case also creates issues for CBS itself.

After reading the California Penal Code today, the interview with Peters could impact the case because Peters is a party to the case and the Penal Code Section 631 states the following:

Except as proof in an action or prosecution for violation of this section, no evidence obtained in violation of this section shall be admissible in any judicial, administrative, legislative, or other proceeding.
See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-631.html

Peters was recorded, had stated that he was off the record, and it was clear that he was talking to a PR guy via phone. Peters can now claim that he thought he was off the record and he was the victim of a Section 631 violation. Their attorneys will certainly attempt to use this interview to defend their client. This interview has created a loophole for Peters and yet another problem for CBS and its shareholders.

Therefore, both Hinman and Pedraza really need to tread more carefully here.


Apart from the fact Alec has publicly stated his lawyers have said no interviews yet he has done them anyway would one of them pesky things that he himself ignored his own lawyers advice..

So they may try to defend this but since it can be proved he ignored this advice means he has no leg to stand on using that defense as he knowingly and willingly put himself in harms way.
 
To Pedraza:
You need to review and read the messages to which you are responding.
The last line of the original message was clear.
I had a very clear paragraph that the message was focused on the legal rights of Bawden, who was on the phone in the clips.
The California law makes clear that no party may be recorded without being first advised.
Despite your rants on Peters, the rights of Mr. Bawden are somewhat compromised when Peters calls Bawden. Peters has Bawden on the phone and there is NO forewarning to Mr. Bawden that he is on the record and/or being recorded.

Bawden wasn't in California...
 
After reading the California Penal Code today, the interview with Peters could impact the case because Peters is a party to the case and the Penal Code Section 631 states the following:

Except as proof in an action or prosecution for violation of this section, no evidence obtained in violation of this section shall be admissible in any judicial, administrative, legislative, or other proceeding.
See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-631.html

Peters was recorded, had stated that he was off the record, and it was clear that he was talking to a PR guy via phone. Peters can now claim that he thought he was off the record and he was the victim of a Section 631 violation. Their attorneys will certainly attempt to use this interview to defend their client. This interview has created a loophole for Peters and yet another problem for CBS and its shareholders.

Not necessarily so at all. The Axanar case is in federal court, not California court. Federal law and federal court rules of procedure trump anything California says. Since at the federal level the United States is a one-party state, I very much doubt California Penal Code Section 631 has any bearing at all on what a federal court can admit as evidence.
 
Thorough?

After reading their blogs and comments, they're irresponsible. It isn't that I want to totally muzzle them. They just need to think through their words and their behavior a bit better.

Regarding the timing of their "news report" on the 1701 blog, the timing of the Trek Zone interview, and the timing of the multiple postings I see on multiple Star Trek related blogs and social media platforms, the timing looks awfully coincidental in that it appears contemporaneous to and possibly competing with the messages from Star Trek Continues supporters who are actively attempting to raise funds through IndieGoGo.

The mixed messages take time to resolve and most people are too lazy to pick apart the differences in the cases.

Hinman and Pedraza's comments on the CBS v. Axanar case also creates issues for CBS itself.

After reading the California Penal Code today, the interview with Peters could impact the case because Peters is a party to the case and the Penal Code Section 631 states the following:

Except as proof in an action or prosecution for violation of this section, no evidence obtained in violation of this section shall be admissible in any judicial, administrative, legislative, or other proceeding.
See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-631.html

Peters was recorded, had stated that he was off the record, and it was clear that he was talking to a PR guy via phone. Peters can now claim that he thought he was off the record and he was the victim of a Section 631 violation. Their attorneys will certainly attempt to use this interview to defend their client. This interview has created a loophole for Peters and yet another problem for CBS and its shareholders.

Therefore, both Hinman and Pedraza really need to tread more carefully here.

Hahahaha. No. Just no.
 
Thorough?

After reading their blogs and comments, they're irresponsible. It isn't that I want to totally muzzle them. They just need to think through their words and their behavior a bit better.

Regarding the timing of their "news report" on the 1701 blog, the timing of the Trek Zone interview, and the timing of the multiple postings I see on multiple Star Trek related blogs and social media platforms, the timing looks awfully coincidental in that it appears contemporaneous to and possibly competing with the messages from Star Trek Continues supporters who are actively attempting to raise funds through IndieGoGo.

The mixed messages take time to resolve and most people are too lazy to pick apart the differences in the cases.

Hinman and Pedraza's comments on the CBS v. Axanar case also creates issues for CBS itself.

After reading the California Penal Code today, the interview with Peters could impact the case because Peters is a party to the case and the Penal Code Section 631 states the following:

Except as proof in an action or prosecution for violation of this section, no evidence obtained in violation of this section shall be admissible in any judicial, administrative, legislative, or other proceeding.
See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-631.html

Peters was recorded, had stated that he was off the record, and it was clear that he was talking to a PR guy via phone. Peters can now claim that he thought he was off the record and he was the victim of a Section 631 violation. Their attorneys will certainly attempt to use this interview to defend their client. This interview has created a loophole for Peters and yet another problem for CBS and its shareholders.

Therefore, both Hinman and Pedraza really need to tread more carefully here.
What evidence was gleaned from this interview? Seriously... Nothing new came from this interview, it wasn't even a retread of old information, it was a degree of a retread...
 
Is this the guy some people here are holding to high esteem?
comments.png
 
Except as proof in an action or prosecution for violation of this section, no evidence obtained in violation of this section shall be admissible in any judicial, administrative, legislative, or other proceeding.
See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-631.html.

You forgot that part "A" of that statue notes that it covers the unauthorized recording. The recording was authorized. It was an interview. While Alec said "off the record" he made no attempt to terminate the recording.

If Michael had terminated the recording and Matthew, through some Star Trekking wizardy, had tapped into Michael's call with Bawden, then you might have a case. That didn't happen, though.
 
I seriously doubt that. Do you REALLY think Axanar would have just closed up shop, and complied with that? I don't. Hell, Alec claimed Axanar made a 'settlement offer' to C/P within 24 hours of being sued: But I think it's pretty clear ONE of the things they probably didn't offer was "We'll completely stop production of Axanar and stop taking Pledges.

Mr. Peters ISN'T fighting this to the level he is just because C/P didn't do the courtesy of submitting a C&D to Axanar Productions.

Team, he's just trying to keep the studio. Hence the investors. The movie is dead-er than a red shirt. He probably ignored the August messaging so that he could build out the studio in the first place.
 
To the point raised earlier, to the effect that Klingon is a system and idea and therefore all circumstances of its origin or context are moot, it cannot be copyrighted, based upon:
Correct me if I am wrong, CBS brought an IP suit against Culture Club (1980'something) for their hook line "Karma karma karma" infringing on CBS's copyrighted hook line of "come a, come a, come a". I believe CBS lost that case.
(For entertainment value only)
Because 5 minutes just won't be enough, here's a little help for extending the suit past the 1st episode. How many actors (fan or professional) actually pull off the Klingon language anyway? Do you Q'apla, Qapla', Ca'plow, Kaplate? Has each C/P movie and episode ever been perfectly consistent pronouncing Klingon? If not how could CBS declare it unique?
Are all Vulcan ears the same or are they simply copies from early vampire flicks?
 
I've just logged in and seen three pages (more or less) about the interview, some of @bonesmccoy2014 's comments have already been addressed, but let me add my two cents...

As just a viewer, I felt rather uncomfortable viewing the interview because the person on the phone (Bawden?) did not explicitly get told that he was being filmed and recorded.

In the case of the youtube video posted, the author and interview host is recording and knows that he is recording but does not appear to inform "Bawden" or Alex Peters that the camera is not "off the record". By all rights, the tape should have been stopped.
Despite your rants on Peters, the rights of Mr. Bawden are somewhat compromised when Peters calls Bawden. Peters has Bawden on the phone and there is NO forewarning to Mr. Bawden that he is on the record and/or being recorded.
Peters had the responsibility to tell his PR man that he was being recorded because it was Peters who called the PR guy.
AP did tell MB that 'I have Matthew with me' implying that I was still connected. MB even talks directly to me through AP's speaker and Skype. He knew, at least, that the interview was continuing. See below for another example of the fact that he knew he was recorded.

But, if you note, I was not recommending that a judicial proceeding or complaint be filed against the reporter from Australia. I was raising concerns about the rights of ALL parties in the interview and the behavior of parties in this thread.
Let me state this very clearly: we were not live-to-air, all of these conversations were pre recorded. Mike Bawden, as the PR rep of Axanar, was given ample opportunity to respond to Alec's comments, even viewing what Alec had said after MB's requested end point of part one.

Everything you see from AP in part two was watched by MB, therefore he was aware he was recorded.

If he was not informed, then the video tape is evidence of a violation of California Penal Code Section 631.
I was not operating in California at the time, therefore I am not subject to those laws.

In this respect, the rights and interests of CBS or Viacom shareholders are not served well by either Mr. Hinman's behavior or Mr. Pedraza's behavior.
Hinman and Pedraza's comments on the CBS v. Axanar case also creates issues for CBS itself.
Therefore, both Hinman and Pedraza really need to tread more carefully here.
Why? Please elaborate as to how CBS/P's rights and interests are harmed by two people who are not employees?

Regarding the timing of their "news report" on the 1701 blog, the timing of the Trek Zone interview, and the timing of the multiple postings I see on multiple Star Trek related blogs and social media platforms, the timing looks awfully coincidental in that it appears contemporaneous to and possibly competing with the messages from Star Trek Continues supporters who are actively attempting to raise funds through IndieGoGo.
I can assure you that the timings are all coincidental, we do not discuss to plan releases.


Peters was recorded, had stated that he was off the record, and it was clear that he was talking to a PR guy via phone.
During an interview. At no point did Alec request for me to stop recording, at no point did Alec end the Skype call, at no point following the interview did MB request those parts not air.


----
I'd also like to say that at no point following the release of either part has Alec Peters, Mike Bawden or the Axanar legal team contacted me and requested an injunction. At no point following the release of either part, in fact, has Alec Peters or the Axanar legal team attempted any line of communication.

Mike Bawden and I have spoken following the interview, where he expressed his appreciation for my including him in the discussion.
 
Even if that were the case, the US Supreme Court has no jurisdiction at all to rule on what is or is not permissable in Australia, where the person alleged to have committed the beach resides.

We do have Federal Police and extradition treaties that cover this sort of thing. But we also have some decent precedent for why the matter should be heard here. Australian citizen working in Australia and all that.

And of course, any action relies on our respective governments and legal systems giving enough of a shit to pursue the matter. Given the stakes, even something as simple as trying to serve probably wouldn't be deemed as worth it. That sort of power is usually reserved for literal life-or-death matters.
 
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