• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

Status
Not open for further replies.
This is largely speculation as to logical conclusions of the participants.

It's actually not. I asked @TrekZone what their pre-agreements were, and my conclusions here are based on that information, and what was presented.

One thing that is not speculative is that California has laws against recording people without their consent. In the case of the interview, AP was on-camera and knew he was being recorded and filmed.

EXCEPT @TrekZone is not in California. They are in Australia. And thus, even if there was a case here for this (there isn't), Matthew would be subject to the laws of Australia, not California.

Also, the California law (as a two-party consent state) may not allow you to withdraw consent once it's been granted. If this had been filmed in California, and it went to court, that would be something a court would have to decide. But there are other factors here, too — like the fact that Peters did not kill the camera or the microphone. He had the ability to do that, and chose not to do it. If there were questions about the interview, and he truly wanted to go off the record, he would've killed the feed, and moved to a phone call, or done something to support that move.

You don't just get to remove consent in a vacuum.

As just a viewer, I felt rather uncomfortable viewing the interview because the person on the phone (Bawden?) did not explicitly get told that he was being filmed and recorded.

Bawden is a very experienced public relations professional. He has dealt with media many times, or at least should be trained in how to deal with it. He knew they were in an on-camera interview, and that he was being called. He knew he was on speaker, and in earshot of Matthew, because he even addresses Matthew directly.

It is Bawden's responsibility (as it is Peters') to ensure that OTR has been granted. When Peters says, "We're off the record," it is his responsibility to ensure there is an acknowledgement from Matthew. When Bawden is told he is OTR, it is his responsibility to verify that with Matthew.

If there was a legal case here for some reason, and there was no pre-agreement to allow unilateral OTR, a court would absolutely look to see if there was some type of agreement or acknowledgement from Matthew when the OTR statements were made. Because the agreement was ON the record, and, in order to change that agreement, both sides would have to agree.

Also, courts have defaulted in the past that when you are talking to a reporter, you have to assume everything you say is on the record, unless you have some type of relationship or friendship outside of the reporter's job functions that would, at least, create a plausible understanding that what you were saying was private.

For California citizens (not sure about other states), it is in fact illegal for a party to audio record a conversation without first informing the party being recorded that they are in fact being recorded.

That doesn't apply here, first because it wasn't filmed in California, and second because Peters was aware he was being recorded. He even acknowledges he agreed to an on-camera interview in the interview. So there is no question there.

When you are calling a customer service line or some huge corporation, California citizens can actually tell that company to turn off their recording (i.e. recording "for quality control purposes only").

I hope you understand that there is a major difference between a reporter and a customer service representative. One big difference? One of them is mentioned specifically in the Constitution. Guess which one?

In the case of the youtube video posted, the author and interview host is recording and knows that he is recording but does not appear to inform "Bawden" or Alex Peters that the camera is not "off the record". By all rights, the tape should have been stopped.

Not required. Once again, it is Peters' and Bawden's responsibility to VERIFY they are off the record, because courts have defaulted in the past that you are always on the record when you communicate with a reporter. Whether it's by phone, in person, in email, in Facebook messenger ... if you are aware you are talking to a reporter, and you're talking to that reporter in the capacity of his job as a reporter, that reporter is talking to you in an effort to collect information for a story. You are defaulted on the record, at least in any legal sense there would be, and any off-the-record would come from an explicit agreement between the two parties. Without that explicit agreement — which means a meeting of the minds, both sides have to agree — there is no off-the-record.

It's like if I see you have a nice Corvette, and I say, "I am going to pay you $500 for it." I can't take you to court and force you to give me that price just because I declared it, because we never had a meeting of the minds that you would sell it to me for that. You never agreed. And I can't even say, "Well, when I said it, he didn't say anything -- he had a responsibility to reject it, and by not rejecting it, that means he accepted it."

Nope. Doesn't work that way.

With all due respect to the reporter, Peters clearly stated that he was Off The Record. But, to invoke the California law, the California citizen must state that they do not want to be recorded at all and that the recording must stop. Peters did not do this.

Peters clearly stated he was OTR, but that is not enough. And it's good to know that if you ever talk to a reporter in his or her official capacity as a reporter, that you understand that reporter's OTR policy. Because everyone is different (remember, OTR is an explicit agreement between two parties, there are no other laws regarding it outside of invasion of privacy — it becomes more of a contract law situation).

For example, my OTR policy is that you must declare OTR (and receive my agreement) BEFORE you say something, not after. Depending on the interview subject, I might provide leeway, but that is totally at my discretion.

When an interview subject asks to go off the record, I literally say, "You are off the record" and maybe even, "You are off the record, and I've stopped typing." If you say "off the record," and you don't hear a specific acknowledgement like that, you should follow up with, "Are we off the record now?" Because otherwise, you could very well still be on the record.

EDIT: By the way, I responded to this as I saw it, and later saw Carlos' response. And his response is spot-on as well. :)
 
Last edited:
I've always been a little confused by why people would even go off the record when they're talking to a reporter. If you are talking to a reporter then the whole point of the conversation is to get what you say on the record, and if there is something you don't want on the record then just don's say it. I could see if you're involved with a movie or TV show or something else time sensative and you request that they withhold part of the interview until later, but I would think if you didn't want it getting out at all you'd be better off just not talking about it at all.

People keep talking about Axanar getting some kind of licensing deal from CBS/P, but I would think if that was an option one of the other higher profile fan series that appears to have a good relationship with them, like NV or Continues, would have probably done it by now.
 
I've always been a little confused by why people would even go off the record when they're talking to a reporter. If you are talking to a reporter then the whole point of the conversation is to get what you say on the record, and if there is something you don't want on the record then just don's say it. I could see if you're involved with a movie or TV show or something else time sensative and you request that they withhold part of the interview until later, but I would think if you didn't want it getting out at all you'd be better off just not talking about it at all.
People keep talking about Axanar getting some kind of licensing deal from CBS/P, but I would think if that was an option one of the other higher profile fan series that appears to have a good relationship with them, like NV or Continues, would have probably done it by now.

People have a variety of reasons for speaking off the record. Things like they want the information known by somebody else but they can't say because they don't want to lose their job.

Or they want to point the reporter to some information or another source that can be verified on the record.

Or they want the reporter to understand some background in a situation but don't want to be named as the source of that background information. That's just some.

Then there are the people who can't resist talking because they need the attention, regardless of whether that's the wisest thing for them to do. You may have stumbled across one or two of those.
 
Last edited:
I've always been a little confused by why people would even go off the record when they're talking to a reporter. If you are talking to a reporter then the whole point of the conversation is to get what you say on the record, and if there is something you don't want on the record then just don's say it. I could see if you're involved with a movie or TV show or something else time sensative and you request that they withhold part of the interview until later, but I would think if you didn't want it getting out at all you'd be better off just not talking about it at all.

People keep talking about Axanar getting some kind of licensing deal from CBS/P, but I would think if that was an option one of the other higher profile fan series that appears to have a good relationship with them, like NV or Continues, would have probably done it by now.

I get a little confused when someone is being sued by a major corporation and still chats about it in public forums.
If only C/P would have sent Axanar a simple cease and desist all this nasty business could have been avoided. As much as all the Axanar supporters loved Prelude a simple draft could have laid the issue on the table for shifting gears from Axanar to Axstar, stripping all the IP from the yet to be written script, allowing team Aries the freedom to become even more awesome than originally proposed.
Yep, I'd sure like to hear why the C/P lawyers skipped right over the very 1st step.
 
Been away for a week and just about to catch up on Trekzone intv Pt 2. But can someone kindly let me know if any other significant developments?
 
If only C/P would have sent Axanar a simple cease and desist all this nasty business could have been avoided.

I seriously doubt that. Do you REALLY think Axanar would have just closed up shop, and complied with that? I don't. Hell, Alec claimed Axanar made a 'settlement offer' to C/P within 24 hours of being sued: But I think it's pretty clear ONE of the things they probably didn't offer was "We'll completely stop production of Axanar and stop taking Pledges.

Mr. Peters ISN'T fighting this to the level he is just because C/P didn't do the courtesy of submitting a C&D to Axanar Productions.
 
I seriously doubt that. Do you REALLY think Axanar would have just closed up shop, and complied with that? I don't. Hell, Alec claimed Axanar made a 'settlement offer' to C/P within 24 hours of being sued: But I think it's pretty clear ONE of the things they probably didn't offer was "We'll completely stop production of Axanar and stop taking Pledges.

Mr. Peters ISN'T fighting this to the level he is just because C/P didn't do the courtesy of submitting a C&D to Axanar Productions.
On that note, I wouldn't be surprised if Axanar was C&D'd and just chose to ignore it.
 
Mr. Peters ISN'T fighting this to the level he is just because C/P didn't do the courtesy of submitting a C&D to Axanar Productions.
I'm not sure many fan films would attempt to continue with Star Trek fan films (or even a single episode) after a C&D was issued or notified one was pending.
Was Axanar really handled differently and if they were, why?
 
California's two-party consent law doesn't really apply here because Peters knew he was being interviewed by a journalist; he knew a camera and microphone were activated and trained on him — it was his own dang camera, for goodness sake.

To Pedraza:
You need to review and read the messages to which you are responding.
The last line of the original message was clear.
I had a very clear paragraph that the message was focused on the legal rights of Bawden, who was on the phone in the clips.
The California law makes clear that no party may be recorded without being first advised.
Despite your rants on Peters, the rights of Mr. Bawden are somewhat compromised when Peters calls Bawden. Peters has Bawden on the phone and there is NO forewarning to Mr. Bawden that he is on the record and/or being recorded.
 
I get a little confused when someone is being sued by a major corporation and still chats about it in public forums.
If only C/P would have sent Axanar a simple cease and desist all this nasty business could have been avoided. As much as all the Axanar supporters loved Prelude a simple draft could have laid the issue on the table for shifting gears from Axanar to Axstar, stripping all the IP from the yet to be written script, allowing team Aries the freedom to become even more awesome than originally proposed.
Yep, I'd sure like to hear why the C/P lawyers skipped right over the very 1st step.

A cease and desist letter is certainly a form of copyright defense and enforcement.

The "skip" of sending the cease and desist is likely related to the fact that Axanar was accruing significant funds in their piggy bank based upon C/P property. That's "profiting" from the copyright without licensing.

In order for C/P to recoup legal expenses in the case, they would have to file the complaint in court and obtain a judgment. C/P is after the judgment to put the axe on use of their copyrights.
 
EXCEPT @TrekZone is not in California. They are in Australia. And thus, even if there was a case here for this (there isn't), Matthew would be subject to the laws of Australia, not California.

Uh no.
If a party to a conversation is in California, the California laws apply no matter the point of origin of the other call participants. This matter was adjudicated in a US Supreme Court case between a person in California who was litigating against a financial firm in the South. The firm in the South argued that the California law could not apply to their firm which was located in a different state. The Supreme Court clarified that the California law did apply.


Also, the California law (as a two-party consent state) may not allow you to withdraw consent once it's been granted. If this had been filmed in California, and it went to court, that would be something a court would have to decide.

The courts have already addressed this.
The participants on a call may withdraw consent at any time.
The other party must stop the recording per the law.


You don't just get to remove consent in a vacuum.

In California, the removal of consent can occur at any time and must be responded to affirmatively by the other party.
If someone is a California citizen and is on the phone with any other party, the citizens of California do not need to consent to being recorded.

NOTE

Penal Code - PEN
PART 1. OF CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS [25 - 680]
( Part 1 enacted 1872. )
TITLE 15. MISCELLANEOUS CRIMES [626 - 653.75]
( Title 15 enacted 1872. )

CHAPTER 1.5. Invasion of Privacy [631]
( Chapter 1.5 added by Stats. 1967, Ch. 1509. )


(a) Any person who, by means of any machine, instrument, or contrivance, or in any other manner, intentionally taps, or makes any unauthorized connection, whether physically, electrically, acoustically, inductively, or otherwise, with any telegraph or telephone wire, line, cable, or instrument, including the wire, line, cable, or instrument of any internal telephonic communication system, or who willfully and without the consent of all parties to the communication, or in any unauthorized manner, reads, or attempts to read, or to learn the contents or meaning of any message, report, or communication while the same is in transit or passing over any wire, line, or cable, or is being sent from, or received at any place within this state; or who uses, or attempts to use, in any manner, or for any purpose, or to communicate in any way, any information so obtained, or who aids, agrees with, employs, or conspires with any person or persons to unlawfully do, or permit, or cause to be done any of the acts or things mentioned above in this section, is punishable by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170, or by both a fine and imprisonment in the county jail or pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170. If the person has previously been convicted of a violation of this section or Section 632, 632.5, 632.6, 632.7, or 636, he or she is punishable by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

(b) This section shall not apply (1) to any public utility engaged in the business of providing communications services and facilities, or to the officers, employees or agents thereof, where the acts otherwise prohibited herein are for the purpose of construction, maintenance, conduct or operation of the services and facilities of the public utility, or (2) to the use of any instrument, equipment, facility, or service furnished and used pursuant to the tariffs of a public utility, or (3) to any telephonic communication system used for communication exclusively within a state, county, city and county, or city correctional facility.

(c) Except as proof in an action or prosecution for violation of this section, no evidence obtained in violation of this section shall be admissible in any judicial, administrative, legislative, or other proceeding.

(d) This section shall become operative on January 1, 1994.

(Amended by Stats. 2011, Ch. 15, Sec. 428. Effective April 4, 2011. Operative October 1, 2011, by Sec. 636 of Ch. 15, as amended by Stats. 2011, Ch. 39, Sec. 68.)
 
To Pedraza:
You need to review and read the messages to which you are responding.
The last line of the original message was clear.
I had a very clear paragraph that the message was focused on the legal rights of Bawden, who was on the phone in the clips.
The California law makes clear that no party may be recorded without being first advised.
Despite your rants on Peters, the rights of Mr. Bawden are somewhat compromised when Peters calls Bawden. Peters has Bawden on the phone and there is NO forewarning to Mr. Bawden that he is on the record and/or being recorded.

That's a bit nasty in tone, and sorry, you're wrong. Carlos explained it well, and so did I, if I do say so myself. :D

Bawden's legal rights aren't even the SAME as Peters, because even if Matthew was filming this in California, Bawden was NOT IN CALIFORNIA.

How is that for emphasis, lol!
 
I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV.
Years ago my wife belonged to a health club that refused to let her Un join and she continued paying the fee for a couple of years without going. When I found out about it I made a copy of the California state law that outlaws automatic renewals and took it down to the gym. The owner physically tossed me out, so we hired a lawyer who was of the opinion that without a C&D the courts would probably put the case far onto the back burner. It never went beyond the C&D to resolve the problem.
So that's about all I know about them.
 
Uh no.
If a party to a conversation is in California, the California laws apply no matter the point of origin of the other call participants. This matter was adjudicated in a US Supreme Court case between a person in California who was litigating against a financial firm in the South. The firm in the South argued that the California law could not apply to their firm which was located in a different state. The Supreme Court clarified that the California law did apply.

Okay for intra-US calls, but Australia to California? Why would someone not in the US be forced to abide by US law? What would they do, force an extradition so the guy could be tried in the USA? Sounds weird to me!
 
A cease and desist letter is certainly a form of copyright defense and enforcement.

It is, but it is not legally necessary in order to pursue a copyright infringement case.

Uh no.
If a party to a conversation is in California, the California laws apply no matter the point of origin of the other call participants.

Really? Because that's a new one. Please, show me a case where the law has been applied to one state, when someone was in another. I would love to see this, because once you cross state lines, it becomes federal jurisdiction.

This matter was adjudicated in a US Supreme Court case between a person in California who was litigating against a financial firm in the South. The firm in the South argued that the California law could not apply to their firm which was located in a different state. The Supreme Court clarified that the California law did apply.

And the case is? Usually, when someone cites a SCOTUS case, they provide the name of the case. So show it to us. We'll also see if this has anything to do with two-party consent notification, or if the case was actually something totally different.

The courts have already addressed this.
The participants on a call may withdraw consent at any time.
The other party must stop the recording per the law.

Wow, then the attorneys all of my colleagues and I have had to listen to each year for many years should be disbarred. Because they showed something much different. Especially the part that if I'm in Australia, and I am interviewing someone in California, I'm suddenly subject to the laws of California. That's fascinating.

Show the court case.

But here's something interesting ... even in California, wiretap laws (which is generally what this is under) still must be balanced with the First Amendment. For instance, in the case of the hidden camera from those two conservatives with ACORN, the reason why those who did the recording were on the wrong side of the law wasn't because they didn't have consent — it was because there was an expectation that this was a confidential meeting, and that everything discussed was confidential.

That case is Vera v. Keefe.

Also, if you actually REVIEW California's wiretap and eavesdropping laws, the laws apply only when there is an expectation of confidentiality. It's not blanket. Like, if you are speaking on a street, and shouting to a number of people, I don't have to ask your permission to record you, even if you're in front of the governor's mansion in Sacramento. That's a big difference.

In fact, California Penal Code 632 provides specific EXCLUSIONS to this law, including those done in public places, government proceedings, or in circumstances where someone could expect to be overheard or recorded (i.e., like with a reporter).

Where did I get all this? Oh yes, from the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. Great document, which you can find here (as Carlos may have already pointed out) ... https://www.rcfp.org/rcfp/orders/docs/RECORDING.pdf

Also, it looks like the "Supreme Court" case you cited is not a SCOTUS case, but instead a Supreme Court of California case. It's Kearney v. Salomon Smith Barney. First, the California Supreme Court has no power outside of California. It could impose penalties and such on companies looking to do business (i.e., collect revenue) from California.

But that doesn't mean ALL communication. It still provides for exclusions, especially as balanced with the First Amendment.

And one last thing on Kearney — it applied to another state in the United States. TrekZone is in Australia, so I am not sure how California would be able to impose fines on an Australian company, unless it somehow had business interests in California.
 
I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV.
Years ago my wife belonged to a health club that refused to let her Un join and she continued paying the fee for a couple of years without going. When I found out about it I made a copy of the California state law that outlaws automatic renewals and took it down to the gym. The owner physically tossed me out, so we hired a lawyer who was of the opinion that without a C&D the courts would probably put the case far onto the back burner. It never went beyond the C&D to resolve the problem.
So that's about all I know about them.

C&Ds can help, and courts encourage them because of what happened here — a C&D sometimes is more than enough to resolve an issue before going to court. It's like court-ordered mediation, etc.

Because of a heavy docket load in courts, even in small claims (which is what I'm sure this would be), the cases that would get priority would be ones that exhausted other remedies before filing in court.

In fact some municipalities, like the one I lived in for a couple decades in Florida, requires all small claims to be heard by a mediator before going in front of a judge.
 
Uh no.
If a party to a conversation is in California, the California laws apply no matter the point of origin of the other call participants. This matter was adjudicated in a US Supreme Court case between a person in California who was litigating against a financial firm in the South. The firm in the South argued that the California law could not apply to their firm which was located in a different state. The Supreme Court clarified that the California law did apply.
Even if that were the case, the US Supreme Court has no jurisdiction at all to rule on what is or is not permissable in Australia, where the person alleged to have committed the beach resides.
 
Even if that were the case, the US Supreme Court has no jurisdiction at all to rule on what is or is not permissable in Australia, where the person alleged to have committed the beach resides.

Yeah, I'd like to see how someone in Australia would be prosecuting for violating California law. Like, who are the lucky cops who get to fly over and try to get extradition because of an interview that went wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top