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CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

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Welcome to the wonderful world of commingling.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that now open the Propworx books to discovery for the Axanar law suit???

To be fair, the basic premise is not illegal nor without precedence. A friend of mine runs a small company, and when the lease they had expired, he bought a building in his personal name that he rents to his business. In his case, if the business owned it outright, it causes all sorts of tax headaches, not to mention if someone "slips and falls" on the property, they could sue and force the business to sell the building as a forfeited asset.

However, the way Peters appears to have it set up, it just seems unethical, and downright slimy.
 
And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that now open the Propworx books to discovery for the Axanar law suit???

To be fair, the basic premise is not illegal nor without precedence. A friend of mine runs a small company, and when the lease they had expired, he bought a building in his personal name that he rents to his business. In his case, if the business owned it outright, it causes all sorts of tax headaches, not to mention if someone "slips and falls" on the property, they could sue and force the business to sell the building as a forfeited asset.

However, the way Peters appears to have it set up, it just seems unethical, and downright slimy.

Well the first thing I would question is his assertion that donors are not paying the Propworx rent somehow. The wording creates lots of loopholes for him (as usual), and he is strongly asserting that the Propworx rent is paid by his salary. Regardless whether it is legal, he is plainly saying something to donors. It should be more specifically described than what he has said.

And opening the Propworx books for discovery, wouldn't that be a foot in mouth moment...
 
From IMDB at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3572740/board/nest/257103002

by jstevens-967-140993 » 1 day ago (Mon Jul 25 2016 05:39:16)
I'm sorry but I have NO sympathy for CBS or Paramount, none whatsoever. They make TERRIBLE movies (the "reboots") that share none of the original Star Trek ethos, destroying the brand in search of money. Now they sue fans who are trying to recapture the magic. CBS is just trying to remove any competition to their new Star Trek series that they want people to pay $6.00 a month to watch. It'll be a cold day in hell before I will give CBS any of my money. I want none of my money to go to CBS or Paramount.

The best thing would be for the Judge to dismiss this sad lawsuit, award legal fees to the fans and then declare Star Trek in the public domain, since it has become, through usage, a national treasure. Its like Kleenex and the other trademarks, that became public domain because the people considered them thus.
My reply:
by Sgt_G » 14 hours ago (Mon Jul 25 2016 23:44:17)
Wrong on almost every level.

CBS did not sue a bunch of fans. They sued _ONE_ guy who was (and still is) making money off the Star Trek name without their permission.

The law suit is about copyright infringements, not trademark violations. Completely different rules. You don't have to defend your copyright against every little infringement, and there is no way for the judge to order the works be placed in the public domain. Trademarks must be defended at all times or risk being voided.

If this case was about stomping out competition, then CBS would have sought action against a dozen or more fan-film groups. The haven't said "Boo!" to any of them save one whom they asked to not start a Kickstarter fund-raising campaign. They didn't tell them to shut productions down, just to not use raise money at that point in time.
And the response. Oh Holy Bats, this guy is drunk on Kool Aid:
by jstevens-967-140993 » 12 hours ago (Tue Jul 26 2016 01:21:29)
"Wrong on almost every level."

Wow, so sweeping. You must be a genius (or a CBS lawyer). Well, let me answer your ridiculous defense of CBS...

Now, I am not some bumpkin who has just come in from the woods. I have run some large corporations that had extensive intellectual property portfolios, including patents, trademarks and copyrights. I have fought huge legal battles over trademarks and patents. I have been there, both in CBS's place and as a defendant. I run a company today that lives on IP. And I know the "legal" advise CBS has gotten because I have attorneys who tell me the same things - litigate against the infringers! Forget the business case, protect your rights!

Experience has taught me a simple pearl of wisdom: "Sometimes things are legal but they are not right (or make no business sense); and sometimes the right thing is not legal."

Apply this to CBS - They may have the LEGAL right to sue these people but it is wrong and, in the long run, economically stupid. Piss off your customers and you will have no customers.

Now onto your legal reasoning. You are technically correct that copyrights and trademarks are different but they both share a concept called "Fair Use". And the Copyright Office (and underlying law) makes clear that a CBS copyright "does not extend to titles, names, slogans or short phrase", such as "Star Trek" or "Beam Me Up, Scotty". See www.copyright.gov/circs/circ34.pdf. So much for your statement about making money off the Star Trek name!

Ideas also cannot be copyrighted, such as the idea of our better future in the 23rd century in the United Federation of Planets.

Now, under Fair Use there is a lot of wiggle room, especially for "transformative works". As you may know, there is a 4 point test to determine Fair Use. One of the key points is the commercial aspect - was the work done for a profit? (This is not dispositive but can have a huge effect upon the outcome.)

What damage does this new work do to CBS? Does it harm their new movie? I would answer that "fan" fiction and movies just help maintain the franchise, to keep Star Trek in people's minds, especially since CBS is not catering to the "classic" fan base.

And as to the "Kickstarter" campaign as the catalyst for this lawsuit, give me a break. Does CBS think that fan movies cost nothing to make? Other fan groups solicit money directly from fans or sell posters or props. Some people put up their own money. Money is fungible, it has to come from somewhere. All these people did was use an existing online fund raising site instead of selling posters or asking for donations. CBS should be impressed that so many people donated through Kickstarter. A lot on money was raised but that just shows the appetite for classic Trek. (OK, so some guy may have made a few dollars off the Kickstarter campaign - is that money that CBS lost? Nope, and we don't even know if that is true. Its just complete conjecture. And unimportant in the big scheme of things.)

CBS will lose this fight, in Court and in the court of public opinion (whatever the outcome, CBS loses). JJ Abrams knows that well and has tried to show CBS the stupidity of this action. What is CBS's best outcome? Win the lawsuit and seize the Kickstarter money? Take the fans donations? That'll go over well! Or maybe get a judgment against the movie's producer(s) and seize their homes? Bankrupt them? Again, are they really THAT stupid? Destroy a fan and the mob will destroy you, CBS. What is your "exit strategy", CBS?

The best thing that CBS could do (which would require some changes in the legal department) would be to cut a deal with the movie's producers to let them do their movie, dismiss the lawsuit and then stream the movie on the new CBS portal. In fact, establish a fan portal at CBS where all fan movies and shows can be showcased. Make CBS THE PLACE to go for Star Trek, official and fan. You could add trailers to other CBS shows as a bonus and get great optics to a loyal fan base. Show the fans you love them. Let people make good content for no cost to CBS and generate excitement for Star Trek. This is the profitable solution - it gives the fans an outlet, puts more Star Trek content out there (content CBS does not want to make) and does not piss off the base.

Recall that the fans (and the businesses that fed them) kept Star Trek alive when Paramount had abandoned the franchise. Without them Star Trek might be just an old 1960s TV show. How about the conventions? People made loads of money off the Star Trek conventions, especially the promoters. The stars also made lots of money, upwards of $50K for an appearance. And all the vendors who sold stuff to the fans. Lots and lots of money changed hands. Why didn't CBS (or Paramount or Viacom) sue them! Because they understood that this industry was saving Star Trek. The fan movies (and series) do the same thing. And they take no money out of CBS's pocket.

And what happens when the inevitable fan backlash comes, when fans start organizing to boycott CBS and the official Start Trek movies and new TV series? CBS hopes the new Star Trek series generates profit for their new streaming service but what if the boycott comes? Then what? There is no good outcome to the suit, no deep pocket to take (if CBS wins). If CBS loses, think of the damage the brand. And the process creates bad PR for the brand, just as CBS launches a new streaming product!

Will CBS do the right and profitable thing? I doubt it since the lawyers are in charge and historically lawyers make bad business people. At some point, CBS will quietly drop the suit when they realize the damage to their reputation - but the damage will have been done. CBS has never been a brilliant company. This lawsuit just proves the point.

Wow. Anyone want to jump in and help show him the error of his ways?
 
From IMDB at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3572740/board/nest/257103002

My reply:And the response. Oh Holy Bats, this guy is drunk on Kool Aid:

Wow. Anyone want to jump in and help show him the error of his ways?

1. What is a super exec of major corporate import doing writing long diatribes on IMDB? Starting out out by calling names? He should be 95% briefer, and more level headed. In his position, he should have an irresistible instinct to keep his trap shut or at least be somewhat circumspect.

2. If he has argued both sides of copyright, one would imagine he understands that non-owners do not have rights to just do as they please because they believe in their worthiness. Yet he trots out every talking point about what 'should' be as counter to established law and precedent. He says inflammatory things like "destroy the fan and the mob will destroy you, CBS". And he grossly overestimates the impact of this case on the casual 99.9999% of fans.

It all just screams major executive to me :lol:
 
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[URL='http://www.imdb.com/user/ur51883051/']jstevens-967-140993[/URL] said:
The best thing would be for the Judge to dismiss this sad lawsuit, award legal fees to the fans and then declare Star Trek in the public domain, since it has become, through usage, a national treasure. Its like Kleenex and the other trademarks, that became public domain because the people considered them thus.
That's not how trademark law works. If this guy was for real he'd know that.

Axahat, you're wearing a thin disguise.
 
That's not how trademark law works. If this guy was for real he'd know that.

Axahat, you're wearing a thin disguise.

"Award legal fees to the fans"???? They aren't party to the lawsuit.

"Declare Star Trek in the public domain"???? Maybe the Trademark. But copyrights properly registered?

"...because through usage its a national treasure"???? Then shouldn't ownership transfer to the Smithsonian?


He wins his patch:

Main_Chairborne__45470.1412703036.1280.1280.jpg
 
1. What is a super exec of major corporate import doing writing long diatribes on IMDB?
I only read to that point of self description in the reply and also thought this can't be true. Someone in that role in business? Nope, this is just someone typing on a keyboard somewhere. But the self aggrandizing, inflammatory statements, and strange countering points actually do read as oddly familiar.
 
And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that now open the Propworx books to discovery for the Axanar law suit???

To be fair, the basic premise is not illegal nor without precedence. A friend of mine runs a small company, and when the lease they had expired, he bought a building in his personal name that he rents to his business. In his case, if the business owned it outright, it causes all sorts of tax headaches, not to mention if someone "slips and falls" on the property, they could sue and force the business to sell the building as a forfeited asset.

However, the way Peters appears to have it set up, it just seems unethical, and downright slimy.
Why yes, yes it does open up the Propworx books!

AP = Axa = Propworx = Woodland Investments = Ares Digital

Enough commingling and it can all be opened up (this may very well be why the in camera stipulation was signed).

And there are non-nefarious reasons why this sort of thing happens - when you run a bunch of one-man-band types of companies, and they are all pretty well related, then it kinda makes sense you might not cross every T and dot every I when it comes to borrowing from this one or moving that thing over, etc.

But it is of concern and it makes one wonder if the corporate veil can be pierced.

Is that anything like canoodling?

Oh, my! /fans self/
 
Why yes, yes it does open up the Propworx books!

AP = Axa = Propworx = Woodland Investments = Ares Digital

Enough commingling and it can all be opened up (this may very well be why the in camera stipulation was signed).
In camera stipulation? I don't know what this means. Was this something in the Protective Order or maybe something recent that I missed?


Wait. I'm reading in the legal school of google about this. It says something like the hearing is going to be in the judge's chambers or the court room without spectators.

When did this get decided? Now I'm a bit confused about the hearing too. LOL Did they already 'have' a hearing? Is it in the future? What happens in a hearing?
 
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The cognitive dissonance here is absolutely astounding (and speaks for itself)

This appears to have been the session called Comic Book Law School 303: New Revelations, at 10:30 am Saturday. While I obviously wasn't there, I'd be very surprised if all of the lawyers on that panel were (a) Axanar fans and (b) in agreement regarding whether its production falls under Fair Use. Why?

Have you been around a group of lawyers? They don't 100 percent agree on ANYTHING. That's kinda their job.

The members of the panel were:
• Michael Lovitz, author of "The Trademark and Copyright Comic Book"
• Prof. Marc Greenberg
• Attorneys Howard Hogan, David Lizerbram and Larry Zerner.

I'm a bit skeptical of a tweet that claims they're "all big Axanar fans," since I know that at least one isn't — at least a fan of Axanar's fair use claims.

David Lizerbram, for example, criticized Axanar's claim it wasn't infringing on his blog back in February, writing:
« It would take a truly novel theory of copyright to suggest that Prelude to Axanar (or, most likely, the forthcoming Axanar) is not an unauthorized derivative work of the original Star Trek copyright. »

I haven't had a chance to track down the copyright and fair use stances of the other lawyers on the panel, but given the relative lack of public proclamations from IP lawyers supporting Axanar's claims, I'd be surprised if they were "all big Axanar fans." I'll keep you posted about what I find.
 
In camera stipulation? I don't know what this means. Was this something in the Protective Order or maybe something recent that I missed?


Wait. I'm reading in the legal school of google about this. It says something like the hearing is going to be in the judge's chambers or the court room without spectators.

When did this get decided? Now I'm a bit confused about the hearing too. LOL Did they already 'have' a hearing? Is it in the future? What happens in a hearing?

In camera........Latin for "In the room".........so anything discussed stays confidential. There was an order signed maybe 2 weeks ago keeping most of discovery private. I'm sure people following more closely can give better specifics. I am also sure it is up thread somewhere.
 
From IMDB at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3572740/board/nest/257103002

My reply:And the response. Oh Holy Bats, this guy is drunk on Kool Aid:

Wow. Anyone want to jump in and help show him the error of his ways?




Seriously, if this guy was legitimate, he wouldn't talk near as much (like the pic says, why would a 'major exec' go on at length on IMDB anyways?). This may not be LFIM himself, but it smells like one of his acolytes........
 
What @KennyB said, @ThankYouGeneR .

It's probably not so much formal hearings (we have no scheduled dates for any of them anyway) as, instead, a requirement that a lot of the discovery remain confidential. That could even be accomplished with, "Hey, you summer intern! You're going to the courthouse today. Wanna drop something off and then pick it up again in three hours?"

It would have to be a 1L or 2L intern as recent graduates are, I believe, taking the Bar Exam (second day?) today. Eek.

But yeah, if there is a lot of stuff there might be a scheduled hearing to look at it all, but for a bit here and there it could very well be as informal as I am suggesting.

For personal financial records, certain precautions would be taken as a matter of course, such as redacting social security and account numbers. That would be to protect defendant Peters and any of his cohorts from identity theft and no lawyer is going to object to any of that.
 



Seriously, if this guy was legitimate, he wouldn't talk near as much (like the pic says, why would a 'major exec' go on at length on IMDB anyways?). This may not be LFIM himself, but it smells like one of his acolytes........

My favorite quote


"The best thing that CBS could do (which would require some changes in the legal department) would be to cut a deal with the movie's producers to let them do their movie, dismiss the lawsuit and then stream the movie on the new CBS portal. In fact, establish a fan portal at CBS where all fan movies and shows can be showcased. Make CBS THE PLACE to go for Star Trek, official and fan. You could add trailers to other CBS shows as a bonus and get great optics to a loyal fan base. Show the fans you love them. Let people make good content for no cost to CBS and generate excitement for Star Trek. This is the profitable solution - it gives the fans an outlet, puts more Star Trek content out there (content CBS does not want to make) and does not piss off the base. "

:guffaw:
The delusion is strong in this one.
 
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