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CBS Elementary vs. BBC Sherlock

More and more, I feel the same way. A few years ago I probably would have said the opposite. But Sherlock just seems to be more of the same, and Moffat's verbal gymnastics just aren't enough anymore.

It's funny because I only ever started watching Elementary for very shallow reasons: that is, for most of my adult life, I've thought Lucy Liu to be the single most beautiful woman on the planet. Yet Joan has genuinely become one of my favorite TV characters ever.

Earlier on, I too felt the same about Sherlock vs Elementary.

I tried Elementary partially because of Lucy Liu, but I was also curious about how Jonny Lee Miller would portray Sherlock. The only thing I had remembered seeing him in earlier was Plunkett and Maclane.
(Looking at IMDB, I'd forgotten his run in Dexter and his episode of Cadfael. The Doctor Who episode was also a long time ago)
 
For me, so far, the very best run of episodes of Elementary are the Moriarty ones. I really don't recall a bad episode of Elementary.
 
Like most people here, I like them both, and am happy to live in an era where we have so much choice (any chance of another RD Jr movie?). And at least all these versions are quite distinct, not pale retreads.

Sherlock is undoubtedly a more stylish production. However, I felt season 3 was rather silly overall, and am afraid I might notice something similar when I rewatch the earlier ones.
Elementary is weakened by its dependence on the standard procedural format, turning out seasons of 24 decent episodes instead of a smaller number of great episodes.
I also feel that Liu is a very limited actor, when someone else might have brought more to the part.
 
When you think about what would be necessary to survive the crushing pressures, deadly cold, and fearsome predators of the oceans, not to mention to rule and patrol more than 2/3 of the Earth's surface, you realize that Aquaman would have to be one of the most powerful, badass superheroes on the planet. This is a guy who once fought a group of bad guys by throwing a polar bear at them. The only reason Aquaman is perceived as lame is because of how he was treated on Super Friends, but every hero on Super Friends was lame.

As for Cypher, I think his power is pretty neat. The ability to understand every language is one of the superpowers I'd love to have for myself. Although I grant it's hard to make it all that useful in an action story.
 
Sherlock versus Elementary. Easy for me. Elementary.

I did the whole first season of Sherlock and all Cumby and pal did was annoy me. Elementary's Holmes and Watson have been entertaining and engaging since the first episode. I've been hooked all along.
 
Okay, then I'm going against the choir here. ;)

I like both, but I love Sherlock. I like the speed, I like the characters, their chemistry, I like the dialogue, Mycroft, Lestrade. Of course, there are flaws, such as the role of women, the pandering to the audience especially in season 3's opener, Moriarty is a huge turn-off etc. But it keeps me on the edge of my seat for the whole 90 minutes, and I'm already yearning for more in 2017.

As someone else already said, Elementary's not a unique series. I feel the series would work whether Holmes is Holmes or Watson is Watson - it's just another crime-procedural where the protagonists incidentally have those names. As I said, I like it, but not for it being about Sherlock Holmes but for it being about an addict and his sober-companion (whatever their names might be) starting to solve crimes together. The only thing they definitely did better was Moriarty. Otherwise, it's a procedural like Criminal Minds or dozens of others on CBS. Granted, good quality entertainment, but while there are many good episodes, there aren't too many outstanding ones - the last one the final part of the Kitty-arc, I guess. And before that the Moriarty-reveal. Add to that that I don't actually like Joan. Her learning how to process evidence like Sherlock in more or less 2 seasons somehow takes away what makes him special. What remains is the addiction angle, and I can do without that (as can the series, since it so far has only been a means to get his father into town). So, I watch it and I'll keep watching it, but I wouldn't shed a tear if it gets cancelled.
 
As someone else already said, Elementary's not a unique series. I feel the series would work whether Holmes is Holmes or Watson is Watson - it's just another crime-procedural where the protagonists incidentally have those names.

I don't think that's so. Sure, plenty of procedural leads are influenced by Holmes, but this character is Holmes as much as Cumberbatch's version. A lot of his dialogue is peppered with direct quotes or paraphrases from Doyle. His personality is plausible as a modernization of Doyle's character. His manner of speaking is distinctly Holmesian. Yes, plotwise, this is another procedural, but what gives procedurals their identity is their characters and style. Character-wise, this is Sherlock Holmes, and stylistically, there's plenty of Holmesian influence.

Add to that that I don't actually like Joan. Her learning how to process evidence like Sherlock in more or less 2 seasons somehow takes away what makes him special.

Again, I disagree. It just means that he's a great teacher on top of everything else. And I'd say it makes Watson more special, rather than making Holmes less so. After all, there has to be a reason why Watson is worthy of being Holmes's best friend. Better this than the Sherlock version where Watson is just a danger junkie and an enabler.


What remains is the addiction angle, and I can do without that (as can the series, since it so far has only been a means to get his father into town).

Oh, good grief, I enormously disagree. This entire series has been a thoughtful, ongoing exploration of the process of recovery and rehabilitation. That journey and the ideas and values associated with rehab have informed the narrative of Elementary at every step. That's one of its most compelling elements.
 
IOh, good grief, I enormously disagree. This entire series has been a thoughtful, ongoing exploration of the process of recovery and rehabilitation. That journey and the ideas and values associated with rehab have informed the narrative of Elementary at every step. That's one of its most compelling elements.

Well, that's your opinion. I realize it's been an underlying issue (sort of difficult not to with Joan starting as his sober-companion, with the meetings, the episodes surrounding sponsors and sponsoring) but I don't find it compelling. And season 4 hasn't done anything with it except for going back to more of the same, he's just sober again, for now - and his father in town with an agenda of his own (much more interesting than any rehab etc issues IMO, BTW, where's Mycroft? He hasn't even been mentioned since getting Sherlock into MI-6 IIRC.).

It just means that he's a great teacher on top of everything else. And I'd say it makes Watson more special, rather than making Holmes less so. After all, there has to be a reason why Watson is worthy of being Holmes's best friend.

Hm, so the only justification for Sherlock to choose Joan as being a worthy best friend is that she can be groomed to do the same thing as he can? I don't agree here. I found it more interesting when Joan still could add a unique touch to Sherlock's investigations, instead of just doing more of the same. That's why I found the second half of season 3 (after Kitty) utterly boring.
 
Hm, so the only justification for Sherlock to choose Joan as being a worthy best friend is that she can be groomed to do the same thing as he can?

What an odd way of twisting it. What I meant was that she's worthy because she's got the intelligence and imagination to operate on his level, once trained.

I found it more interesting when Joan still could add a unique touch to Sherlock's investigations, instead of just doing more of the same.

I think that's still the case. On multiple occasions this season, she's arrived at a crucial clue because of her medical training and experience.
 
I have zero desire to watch Sherlock, so this is entirely Elementary-centric, but I vehemently disagree that Elementary is "just another procedural". From a Season 1 review I posted just over a year ago, I present the following:
In a television landscape where the Procedural genre (be it Traditional or Serialized) has become a bit staid and cliched, it takes a lot of effort to stand out, and Elementary does just that, not only because of its connections to "the World's Greatest Detective", but also because of the ways in which it makes use of those connections.

Even with people having prejudged it because of the existence of the BBC's Sherlock and the decision to make Watson a woman and an American, Elementary made it obvious very early on that the preconceptions people had about it were wrong by simultaneously tapping into the essence of the Sherlock Holmes Canon and forging its own unique path forward, and by assembling a top-notch cast both regular and recurring.

It's easy to look at the series' early episodes and only see 'yet another Procedural', but what the show did well right from the beginning was weaving seemingly standalone stories into a grander, season-long narrative tapestry that was capped off by a sensationally-written 2-hour finale that was more than worthy of not only the series' titular character, but his most profligate ally. Watson can easily be seen as just being Sherlock's 'sidekick', the character who is there largely to 'ground' Holmes and make him relatable, but what Elementary did differently was to make the character Holmes' equal in narrative importance.

This is not only abundantly clear in the finale, but also manifests itself throughout the season, particularly in the Pilot, The Rat Race, M, The Deductionist, A Giant Gun, Filled with Drugs, and Deja vu all over Again.

Elementary transcended the preconceptions and negative comparisons to the BBC's Sherlock by simultaneously tapping into the essence of the character's Canon and forging its own unique path forward, and the most significant - and brilliant - way it does so is in its approach of taking familiar Holmesian characters and twisting them around.

I don't know how the producers came upon the idea of making their interpretation of Mrs. Hudson a male-to-female Transsexual, but it was, quite frankly, a stroke of brilliance. Ms. Hudson may have only showed up late in the season, but her appearance was the perfect way to further and highlight the changing relationship dynamic between Sherlock and Joan and to give Joan a chance to bond with someone other than Sherlock on a deeply emotional level, even in a very short period of time.

Ms. Hudson's introduction also came at the perfect moment for seeding the culmination of the season's primary narrative arc and what is, IMO, one of the most ingenious character decisions ever made: taking Irene Adler and James Moriarty - the two characters most associated with Holmes aside from Watson - and combining them into one.

By giving us a Sherlock Holmes who was brilliantly human and brilliantly damaged, the writers had set a high bar for themselves to clear when it came to introducing his mirror image/greatest opponent, but by turning that opponent into the woman responsible for him being so brilliantly human and damaged, they not only cleared that bar, but smashed it to pieces, and then found the perfect individual to serve as Sherlock's 'perfect foil' in Natalie Dormer. Making Irene and Moriarty one and the same - and giving the role to Dormer - also perfectly tied in to the series' Serialized Procedural format by allowing/affording the writers opportunities to seed important narrative ideas through largely standalone plot points (such as the story told in Child Predator).

Elementary may have had a lot stacked against it, but if its first season proves anything, it's that you shouldn't bet against Sherlock Holmes or the viability of the Serialized Procedural genre.
 
If we're going this route, Law & Order: Criminal Intent. The best not Holmes, Holmes. Ok, the weakest Watson in Eams but the absolute best Moriarty in Nicole Wallace.

I'm not sure it any one else is "going this route," I just thought I'd say so, I've never watched Elementary and yes Sherlock is brilliant, given House is based on Holmes (if not loosely) I decided to suggest it.
 
If we're going this route, Law & Order: Criminal Intent. The best not Holmes, Holmes. Ok, the weakest Watson in Eams but the absolute best Moriarty in Nicole Wallace.

I always thought of Goren as being sort of a more intimidating Columbo, rather than a Holmes figure.
 
I always thought of Goren as being sort of a more intimidating Columbo, rather than a Holmes figure.
Me too. The idea of the series initially is that unlike the other L&O's you'd see the suspects in the beginning of the episode instead of just the victim, like a Columbo movie. L&O was Dragnet, CI was Columbo, and SVU was Dragnet with pedophiles and rapists.
 
^^ That's the same way Murdoch Mysteries does it. The whole series is a Sherlockian take on the whole genre, and often makes direct references to what it was inspired by, and the suspect is usually introduced in one of the first scenes.
 
Law and Order CI might have a Sherlock/Watson-esque duo in Goren and Eames and a Moriarty-esque nemesis for Goren in Elizabeth Hitchens/Nicole Wallace, but that's honestly where the similarities end, at least IMO.
 
When you think about what would be necessary to survive the crushing pressures, deadly cold, and fearsome predators of the oceans, not to mention to rule and patrol more than 2/3 of the Earth's surface, you realize that Aquaman would have to be one of the most powerful, badass superheroes on the planet. This is a guy who once fought a group of bad guys by throwing a polar bear at them. The only reason Aquaman is perceived as lame is because of how he was treated on Super Friends, but every hero on Super Friends was lame.

I can't imagine how people think that SuperFriends was that amazing a show; the theme song is the only good thing about it, especially when it's remixed as it was a while ago. Also, Aquaman is badass, especially when you see him like this:
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As for the subject at hand-I'd love to see similar modernizations of other classic literary action characters, in particular Doc Savage.
 
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