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CBS and Paramount officially back together

Amasov said:
Enterprise did try and Discovery IS trying. It's just the fact that those accusations of NOT trying were thrown at the shows the moment the first frame of footage was seen; though in Discovery's case, I remember it was already hated when nothing but a press release was out. There was ZERO indication what the premise of the series was going to be. It didn't even have a name yet.
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I'm definitely not disagreeing with you, I find people who scream all over the place how much they already hate a show before it has even aired rather tiresome as well. ;) (And when it has aired and they still hate it but continue to hate-watch it instead of simply ignoring it, everything becomes downright... annoying.)
 
MrPicard said:
I've seen people (the same ones who, ironically, were the first to bash ENT back in the day and demand for Berman and Braga's removal as showrunners and who now demand for them to come back) say "At least they TRIED with Enterprise! Discovery doesn't even TRY anymore and is therefore much worse!".
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Ent was bashed in its day because it was trying (and succeeded if you actually watched all 4 seasons) in showing us a before and then a progression to the situation we see in TOS. The NX-01 was never a Federation ship so it keeps intact Picard's statments about D being the fifth starship to bear the name. It was quite careful in its story arc to present things that were just a little off at first but which lined up later. The Klingons weren't suposed to have flat foreheads. TNG and DS9 had already shown that in ancient times the Klingons had ridges. So Enterprise didn't really need to address that. It could have been left for something set closer to TOS. The Vulcans started out quite different but ended up on the right page. Some of those things were questionable, but where they went with it made sense. I held judgement and kept my thinking practical and found that things were explained to my satisfaction. But in Discovery we are dealing with the period between The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before. The look was established. A lot of the production choices were set. Some things were adjusted as TOS went on and somethings were still in flux up through Star Trek II. The starfleet insignia for instance. An article came out claiming it was always the arrowhead and yet that was not the case until Star Trek II. Even in TMP, other insignia were in use. And in TOS the Starfleet insignia was the yellow bent shape on the side of the Enterprise and on the wall in offices. In TOS the Enterprise started out belonging to the United Earth Spade Probe Agency (where it even appeared on uniforms). I think Enterprise even touched on that. Lots of little things that tied everything together than people who blew off Enterprise never saw or realized.

Discovery blew things out of the water the first day. It is a reboot. It is pretending to be in the prime timeline without following the prime timeline. It is one of the worst attempts at following a timeline I have seen. It is worst than Doctor Who which didn't even keep a real timeline for the first decade or so. They changed the Klingons, they changed the technology, they changed characters and personalities, the list is extensive and many have noticed and can't accept that Discovery actually fits where it is supposed to. There are certain things that many of us long time Star Trek fan expect and that were adhered to in previous series. Now we are told to just ignore the issues when we had 25 seasons of Trek where they at least tried. I don't see any effort at trying. It's like some people who may have seen TOS once or twice have written and done the visual changes. There are a lot of things that can be done to update the old looks without totally changing them. Even what Abrams did in his movies is better and closer (except the Enterprise itself) than Discovery. I have been watching Star Trek all my life. I only became a fan after Star Trek II (kinda sorta after TMP, but not really). I excel at Star Trek trivia and have contributed to Memory Alpha. I do know what I am talking about without just spouting off that because CBS says it isn't a reboot that it isn't. It is a reboot because that is the extent to the changes that they have made and how far from the timeline they have strayed. They are not following the primary timeline, but they are paralleling it. And I really don't understand what the issue is with calling it a reboot. It obviously has changed every visual aspect of the universe.

And the comparison to The Motion Picture is dumb. The Klingons got ridges. They also got a receding hairline and were in the same design ships (it truly is an enlargment of the TOS ship with extra details added). Trek owned the change in Klingons and strove to keep as much of the TOS feel as possible. The other changes were all explained in the story and there is no need to go further. But I grew up with ridged klingons so I guess I really don't care. But four nostrils instead of 2.... that is not only different but just stupid as well. And no hair? They fixed that, but they kind of ignored just about everything about Klingons that had been created except the language (Which the prosthetics made sound stupid).
 
yotsuya said:
And the comparison to The Motion Picture is dumb. The Klingons got ridges. They also got a receding hairline and were in the same design ships (it truly is an enlargment of the TOS ship with extra details added). Trek owned the change in Klingons and strove to keep as much of the TOS feel as possible.
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Not really. Kirk was a jerk, warp engines were a bit different, and complete redesign of a major alien species.

Sorry, the comparison is apt. It was change for the sake of change because more money was had. Same as DSC.
 
fireproof78 said:
Not really. Kirk was a jerk, warp engines were a bit different, and complete redesign of a major alien species.

Sorry, the comparison is apt. It was change for the sake of change because more money was had. Same as DSC.
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There was an in-universe time gap, and none of those things *undo* what came before it; They add realistic arcs and advancements. Ship was refit blatantly in dialogue. Kirk had been through some stuff and had a personality shift / arc for the movie. Klingons were explained on ENT. It may have been change for the sake of change, but since it was advancing into a new part of the timeline, it didn't break anything that came *before* it the way Discovery breaks things both forward and backwards.
 
Phoenix219 said:
There was an in-universe time gap, and none of those things *undo* what came before it; They add realistic arcs and advancements. Ship was refit blatantly in dialogue. Kirk had been through some stuff and had a personality shift / arc for the movie. Klingons were explained on ENT. It may have been change for the sake of change, but since it was advancing into a new part of the timeline, it didn't break anything that came *before* it the way Discovery breaks things both forward and backwards.
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Kirk had "been through some stuff." is probably one of the worst explanation of him being an ass to Decker. Sorry, going from TOS to TMP is jarring, at best.

The Klingons don't need much explanation other than more genetic engineering. It's not a game changer.

I don't see DSC "breaking things." YMMV.
 
yotsuya said:
Ent was bashed in its day because it was trying (and succeeded if you actually watched all 4 seasons) in showing us a before and then a progression to the situation we see in TOS. The NX-01 was never a Federation ship so it keeps intact Picard's statments about D being the fifth starship to bear the name. It was quite careful in its story arc to present things that were just a little off at first but which lined up later. The Klingons weren't suposed to have flat foreheads. TNG and DS9 had already shown that in ancient times the Klingons had ridges. So Enterprise didn't really need to address that. It could have been left for something set closer to TOS. The Vulcans started out quite different but ended up on the right page. Some of those things were questionable, but where they went with it made sense. I held judgement and kept my thinking practical and found that things were explained to my satisfaction. But in Discovery we are dealing with the period between The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before. The look was established. A lot of the production choices were set. Some things were adjusted as TOS went on and somethings were still in flux up through Star Trek II. The starfleet insignia for instance. An article came out claiming it was always the arrowhead and yet that was not the case until Star Trek II. Even in TMP, other insignia were in use. And in TOS the Starfleet insignia was the yellow bent shape on the side of the Enterprise and on the wall in offices. In TOS the Enterprise started out belonging to the United Earth Spade Probe Agency (where it even appeared on uniforms). I think Enterprise even touched on that. Lots of little things that tied everything together than people who blew off Enterprise never saw or realized.
Click to expand...


I am 1000% positive that assessment would not be made during the time Enterprise was originally on the air. It's easy to say all this now because the series ended 15 years ago.

yotsuya said:
Discovery blew things out of the water the first day. It is a reboot. It is pretending to be in the prime timeline without following the prime timeline. It is one of the worst attempts at following a timeline I have seen. It is worst than Doctor Who which didn't even keep a real timeline for the first decade or so. They changed the Klingons, they changed the technology, they changed characters and personalities, the list is extensive and many have noticed and can't accept that Discovery actually fits where it is supposed to. There are certain things that many of us long time Star Trek fan expect and that were adhered to in previous series. Now we are told to just ignore the issues when we had 25 seasons of Trek where they at least tried. I don't see any effort at trying. It's like some people who may have seen TOS once or twice have written and done the visual changes. There are a lot of things that can be done to update the old looks without totally changing them. Even what Abrams did in his movies is better and closer (except the Enterprise itself) than Discovery. I have been watching Star Trek all my life. I only became a fan after Star Trek II (kinda sorta after TMP, but not really). I excel at Star Trek trivia and have contributed to Memory Alpha. I do know what I am talking about without just spouting off that because CBS says it isn't a reboot that it isn't. It is a reboot because that is the extent to the changes that they have made and how far from the timeline they have strayed. They are not following the primary timeline, but they are paralleling it. And I really don't understand what the issue is with calling it a reboot. It obviously has changed every visual aspect of the universe.
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Still not a reboot. And not an alternate timeline. It never will be. Just because it's doing things that you find questionable, doesn't make it any less deserving of being in the prime timeline. The only "issues" are the ones that you perceive as such. You're deadset on demonizing everyone involved with Discovery because you think they hate Star Trek, don't care about Star Trek, or are lazy. And given the fact that you are a longtime Star Trek fan, it doesn't make you an authority on what is canon and what isn't. Discovery is canon and is in the prime timeline. The issue lies in the fact that you write it off as a reboot because it doesn't satisfy you.

yotsuya said:
And the comparison to The Motion Picture is dumb. The Klingons got ridges. They also got a receding hairline and were in the same design ships (it truly is an enlargment of the TOS ship with extra details added). Trek owned the change in Klingons and strove to keep as much of the TOS feel as possible. The other changes were all explained in the story and there is no need to go further. But I grew up with ridged klingons so I guess I really don't care. But four nostrils instead of 2.... that is not only different but just stupid as well. And no hair? They fixed that, but they kind of ignored just about everything about Klingons that had been created except the language (Which the prosthetics made sound stupid).
Click to expand...


A fine example of moving the goalpost. Despite the fact that changes were made in in previous Trek productions with the exact same intent that Discovery does, you cherrypick and are an apologist for these things done by earlier iterations, but, Discovery isn't allowed.

Basically every single complaint you've listed was already said about Enterprise back then and you've forgiven and forgotten. This is not new.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
Blooded said:
ENT took so much heat on this board back during its run (I was here to witness it, first hand), yet it's all largely been forgotten now. And the same will happen with DIS, PIC and everything coming in the next few years, too.
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Amasov said:
I am 1000% positive that assessment would not be made during the time Enterprise was originally on the air. It's easy to say all this now because the series ended 15 years ago.
[...]
Basically every single complaint you've listed was already said about Enterprise back then and you've forgiven and forgotten. This is not new.
Click to expand...
ENT S4 corrected many problems, like Disco S2 corrected some.

yotsuya said:
But in Discovery we are dealing with the period between The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before. The look was established.
[...]
There are certain things that many of us long time Star Trek fan expect and that were adhered to in previous series. Now we are told to just ignore the issues when we had 25 seasons of Trek where they at least tried. I don't see any effort at trying. It's like some people who may have seen TOS once or twice have written and done the visual changes. There are a lot of things that can be done to update the old looks without totally changing them.
[...]
But I grew up with ridged klingons so I guess I really don't care. But four nostrils instead of 2.... that is not only different but just stupid as well.
Click to expand...
I fully agree that the difference is that ENT was an open world where they could design away freely cause nothing was established from that era. The Disco era however was seen before.
Previous Trek did a good job adhering to what was shown before. TOS designs even carried on throughout TNG, DS9, and ENT.
The Klingon nose did change before, however. They added ridges to the noses for TNG, cause the TOS movie Klingons had human noses.

Phoenix219 said:
There was an in-universe time gap, and none of those things *undo* what came before it; They add realistic arcs and advancements. Ship was refit blatantly in dialogue. Kirk had been through some stuff and had a personality shift / arc for the movie. Klingons were explained on ENT. It may have been change for the sake of change, but since it was advancing into a new part of the timeline, it didn't break anything that came *before* it the way Discovery breaks things both forward and backwards.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

fireproof78 said:
Kirk had "been through some stuff." is probably one of the worst explanation of him being an ass to Decker. Sorry, going from TOS to TMP is jarring, at best.
Click to expand...
Kirk became more of who he was before when he was reunited with Spock. Without him, he was a mean, grumpy, bound-to-the-desk Admiral. Then Spock is back, Kirk lightens up. Spock admits his feelings, Kirk is a better person again.
 
yotsuya said:
But in Discovery we are dealing with the period between The Cage and Where No Man Has Gone Before. The look was established.
[...]
There are certain things that many of us long time Star Trek fan expect and that were adhered to in previous series. Now we are told to just ignore the issues when we had 25 seasons of Trek where they at least tried.
Click to expand...

No one told you to ignore anything. The fact that the original sets were recreated on past series (though if you want to get nitpicky, I can point out where the errors are) just proved that it could be done. I love TOS to death and I do love the look, but, I'm going to be honest and say it's a very dated look; especially when I got to see it up close at the Star Trek Original Series Set Tour. Making a series set in this timeframe in 2017-2020 with the look of a 1960s retro science fiction television series just doesn't fly today.

Also, again, assumptions are being made here and lots of them. For all you know, the people behind this show wanted to go down the faithful route of recreating the 1960s look, but, CBS may have ultimately overruled them. You don't know.
 
I was very impressed with how much they kept to the Enterprise’s aesthetic in discovery.

Of course there were then complaints about how they did things that kept in with the continuity established in the 60s (like ripping out unreliable holo technology)

But those complaints were also thee when Enterprise was on air. People hated trek09 too, and the rewriting of the Borg backstory in voyager, the eugenics war in futures end, the Cochrane age in first contact (and what people already believed about that time period), were also sources of complaints.

What we find out with time is that there’s very little that need handwaving away - many continuity mistakes are based on assumptions, and those that appear to be there can be explained (the novel verse for example has several books like tie future history together very well)
 
Paul Weaver said:
What we find out with time is that there’s very little that need handwaving away - many continuity mistakes are based on assumptions, and those that appear to be there can be explained (the novel verse for example has several books like tie future history together very well)
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Exactly.
NCC-73515 said:
Kirk became more of who he was before when he was reunited with Spock. Without him, he was a mean, grumpy, bound-to-the-desk Admiral. Then Spock is back, Kirk lightens up. Spock admits his feelings, Kirk is a better person again.
Click to expand...
Doesn't make it less jarring, especially moving from TOS to TMP with no context. Kirk is just a jerk to Decker for no reason. It feels very out of character, jarring at best, and disservice to the character at worst. ​
 
Phoenix219 said:
There was an in-universe time gap, and none of those things *undo* what came before it; They add realistic arcs and advancements. Ship was refit blatantly in dialogue. Kirk had been through some stuff and had a personality shift / arc for the movie. Klingons were explained on ENT. It may have been change for the sake of change, but since it was advancing into a new part of the timeline, it didn't break anything that came *before* it the way Discovery breaks things both forward and backwards.
Click to expand...

Discovery doesn’t “undo” anything; discs of old episodes didn’t suddenly self-destruct as it aired.

Trek is full of retcons and inconsistencies.

Try head ridges on Romulans both before and after TOS (contradicting a key plot point in Balance of Terror), First Contact retconning BoBW, displaced Bajora vs occupied Bajorans, Trill with ridges who can’t transport vs Trill with spots who can, Vorta mind powers, etc.

It’s particularly amusing that Spock’s line about no previous mutinies is cited in this thread to show that Discovery is inconsistent. Spock’s line itself is inconsistent - there had been two previous mutinies on TOS alone; he was the mutineer in one of them!

Funny how some are willing to handwave past inconsistencies - oh hey, this was explained in a half-arsed way 35 years later so it’s okay - while being OUTRAGED by Discovery.

MrPicard said:
I've seen people (the same ones who, ironically, were the first to bash ENT back in the day and demand for Berman and Braga's removal as showrunners and who now demand for them to come back) say "At least they TRIED with Enterprise! Discovery doesn't even TRY anymore and is therefore much worse!".
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I have old fanclub magazines filled with complaints about the Trek shows at the time - DS9 isn’t Trek, Voyager is TNG-lite, Enterprise is destroying canon, etc. Hell. i stopped coming here for years because the Voy & Ent bashing was so constant.

Yet now when many people want to bash Discovery, all of previous Trek is one big amorphous lump and Discovery is somehow ruining it all (just like the Kelvin films were a few years before).

It’s the most tedious fanbase I’ve ever been a part of.
 
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Amasov said:
I think it's because it's the latest iteration, so it's just subject to all the hate and ridicule just like the past series were when they were new.
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Spot on. And those who are doing the complaining, genuinely either don't realise this, or are conveniently trying to rewrite the past (if they happened to even be a part of communities like this, back when Trek was last on TV).

The biggest positive, when I returned to this site, was seeing members who were around back in ENT's run actively calling out those who are now trying to pretend it was universally loved as a part of the franchise. It wasn't, and it was sh*t all over. As someone who was actively defending it at the time, it's great to see that there are people who aren't trying to rewrite that history.
 
https://web.archive.org/web/2002040...m=Enterprise&number=28&DaysPrune=2&LastLogin=


Posts include

bashers not wrong, but missing the point
Gusher In Danger of Turning Into Basher
The real reasons why bashers hate Enterprise
Why is ENT afraid to take risks?
Is it just me, or is the NX-01 bridge clunky looking?
A theory on holo-technology
A list of people working on ENT that should be fired
Bashers! learn to be more objective.
What is the deal with T'Pol's ears?
The good old days

And my favourite title

ENT is CANNON and has NEVER violated continuity!!!



Even before it aired

https://web.archive.org/web/2001060...m=Enterprise&number=28&DaysPrune=2&LastLogin=


Wanted: Intelligent writers for Enterprise.
Canon vs. suspending disbelief opinions?
Would anyone care if B/B did away with the not seeing romulan face thing?
Could or would B & B rewrite canon?
How long are you willing to wait before you switch off?
Canon: Wait Till all TOSers Die, then no one will know!
Time Travel!! The easiest way to excuse Enterprise canon mishaps
 
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