"Cause & Effect" Question

[Trekker4747]

I love this episode, one of my favorites, but there's a few logic errors in it.

First off, at the end of the episode Worf compares the ship's clock to a timnebase and finds the ship is off by several days. This would mean time passed for the rest of the universe and not the Enterprise. Now, sure, the area around the anomaly could simply exsist in its own pocket of time but one would think that Starfleet would've noticed the Enterprise missing and sent out ship(s) to investigate or tried to communicate to see what was going on. Either would've disrupted the Enterprise falling into the time loop.

Secondly, at one point someone suggests they turn around to avoid falling into the timeloop. The idea is dismissed because it isn't known if that action is what causes them to fall into the loop in the first place. Another logic errir, since the first time through the area they'd have no reason to turn around, what causes them to fall into the loop MUST be ahead of them. Turning around would be the correct solution.

Thidly, I think the episode should've been followed up the following week in dealing with the Bozeman's crew. Or cutting out a loop or two in this episode to deal with the Bozeman. Not handling that or wrapping it up better was a mistake in my opinion. The episode just stops right when events are getting even more interesting!

"Perhaps you should beam aboard our ship. It seems we've much to discuss."

And then the episode just ends and we never pick up on the thread again.

 

[Rhaenys]

And then the episode just ends and we never pick up on the thread again.

Maybe that's because it would not be easy to arrange everything so that Kelsey Grammar can have a major part in the episode...?

Secondly, at one point someone suggests they turn around to avoid falling into the timeloop. The idea is dismissed because it isn't known if that action is what causes them to fall into the loop in the first place.

I think they did the same in Time Squared, and hey were wrong again.

 

[Trekker4747]

And then the episode just ends and we never pick up on the thread again.

Maybe that's because it would not be easy to arrange everything so that Kelsey Grammar can have a major part in the episode...?

The episode(s) is/are written before casting.

If the episode was written with a bigger part for the Bozeman captain or for the events to be picked up in the next episode and Grammar couldn't commit to a larger role they could've simply hired an actor who could.

 

[mr.peany]

I think the Bozeman both did loop and did not. Once it came forward to the Enterprise's time, it was within the loop with them. Granted they would only be in the loop a short while, since it would restart. They were in 2278 once, and in the 24th Century however many times it took to break the loop.

I do NOT like time loop/travel related episodes. Good lord. My head hurts.

 

[SchwEnt]

The part that makes my head hurt is how the "repeating" works.

First time through, no one knows the difference.
Then the crew gets hints of deja vu or something.
Then more awareness that this has happened before.
Then total recall of specific events and actions.

If time is playing a complete reset, then wouldn't *everything* rewind--
including brain functions and memories?

As in....if you didn't remember it the first day, and then you go BACK to that first day...your memories should go back in time (along with everthing else) to that original prior state of "first time".
No vague recollections of earlier events, no flashes of recognition of what happened next.

Anyone get what I'm saying?

Maybe people's minds and memories have some kind of Traveler-esque ability to transcend spacetime dimensions, beyond just the corporeal.

But whatever...cool idea anyway and a swell eps.

 

[startrekwatcher]

They explained the deja vu with the idea of the dekion field.

 

[SchwEnt]

My mind must be failing, I forgot the dekion field...must go back and re-watch...

 

[Timo]

Now, sure, the area around the anomaly could simply exist in its own pocket of time but one would think that Starfleet would've noticed the Enterprise missing and sent out ship(s) to investigate or tried to communicate to see what was going on.

A bit unlikely. We have never gotten the impression that starships would stay in daily contact with Starfleet, either in the form of dictated reports or automated databursts. And even though the E-D seems to stay closer to home than Kirk's ship did, it is still par for her course to explore strange new phenomena which apparently lack phone lines.

Also, a silence of two weeks could be by Picard's choice. Starships in the TOS era were allowed to go missing for half a year before another ship was diverted to investigate. Even if the TNG era Fleet has more ships to spare for investigations, in relation to the volume of operations, starships are supposed to be pretty independent in what they do.

Secondly, at one point someone suggests they turn around to avoid falling into the timeloop. The idea is dismissed because it isn't known if that action is what causes them to fall into the loop in the first place. Another logic errir, since the first time through the area they'd have no reason to turn around, what causes them to fall into the loop MUST be ahead of them. Turning around would be the correct solution.

Only if the source of the loop is a localized phenomenon, though. And there's no particular reason to think that yet.

Also, even though the loop in this episode would have been disrupted if the E-D turned around, it would be entirely plausible to construe a loop wherein the E-D was originally heading away from Typhon or a similar phenomenon, turned around and got looped, and then kept turning around. That loop would be broken by refusing to turn.

Thidly, I think the episode should've been followed up the following week in dealing with the Bozeman's crew. Or cutting out a loop or two in this episode to deal with the Bozeman. Not handling that or wrapping it up better was a mistake in my opinion. The episode just stops right when events are getting even more interesting!

But we already had "Relics". I don't think the audience could have connected with the Bozemanites in any way, really, not even if the XO had been Saavik as originally briefly intended.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Iamnotspock]

I don't think the Bozeman looped, as if it had then it begs the question, why didn't the crew experience deja vu like the Enterprise crew? If they had, they would surely have figured out what was happening well within 90 years, as it only took Picard's lot 17.4 days.

To address the OP's question, if Data had chosen the number 1 as a message, they wouldn't have been able to include the Poker game in the plot as there is no 'Number 1' in a pack of cards. In the fictional context, Data would have considered this as well and likely chose '3' instead knowing that he would encounter it in the Poker game in the next loop.

 

[Gary7]

I love this episode, one of my favorites, but there's a few logic errors in it.

First off, at the end of the episode Worf compares the ship's clock to a timnebase and finds the ship is off by several days. This would mean time passed for the rest of the universe and not the Enterprise. Now, sure, the area around the anomaly could simply exsist in its own pocket of time but one would think that Starfleet would've noticed the Enterprise missing and sent out ship(s) to investigate or tried to communicate to see what was going on. Either would've disrupted the Enterprise falling into the time loop.

Secondly, at one point someone suggests they turn around to avoid falling into the timeloop. The idea is dismissed because it isn't known if that action is what causes them to fall into the loop in the first place. Another logic errir, since the first time through the area they'd have no reason to turn around, what causes them to fall into the loop MUST be ahead of them. Turning around would be the correct solution.

Thidly, I think the episode should've been followed up the following week in dealing with the Bozeman's crew. Or cutting out a loop or two in this episode to deal with the Bozeman. Not handling that or wrapping it up better was a mistake in my opinion. The episode just stops right when events are getting even more interesting!

"Perhaps you should beam aboard our ship. It seems we've much to discuss."

And then the episode just ends and we never pick up on the thread again.

Although I really like the episode for the concept, and the impact of seeing the Enterprise inadvertently destroyed as the crew struggles to find a way out of the predicament, I am a bit bothered by the plethora of logic errors. Some are painfully obvious.

Your second point is the largest "gaping hole" of logic in this episode. Proceeding "as normal" without taking heed of the "messages from the future" that they were able to extract rather serendipitously is like ignoring a detour sign on a road. Reversing course is not something they would have done had they not found any messages. So logically, halting their progress forward makes perfect sense. Certainly Data should have seen that.

I don't have a "firm handle" on the Star Trek premise for temporal distortions and anomalies... But from what we see in this episode, the suggestion is that time can be "recycled" in small segments of space. In another episode, we see it completely halted in some places, with small pockets of fast time and slow time scattered about. It's difficult to explain how this can happen. In C&E, the anti-matter explosion appears to do something with the time rift that puts the Bozeman and Enterprise on this seemingly endless loop. And so you're right--if this goes on for weeks, it does suggest that they should be contacted by Starfleet. Even still, if Worf can check the time signal once they left the causality loop, certainly they should have been able to receive it during each loop... because the signal being transmitted is OUTSIDE the causality loop. They should have known after one or two loops that something was seriously wrong because of the time difference, and not needed to discover "messages from the future" after 3 weeks of looping.

Lastly, what's the deal with Data? He is an incredibly sophisticated computer that can process information extremely fast. His handling of the helm during the situation is too "human." Knowing what he does in the loop where they're first aware of imminent destruction, Data should have considered engaging the tractor beam IMMEDIATELY after spotting the Bozeman. It's because out of all the other choices it is the only system still functional (though rather odd). Certainly there must be a system status board where he could quickly know what systems are still functional and then use the tractor beam. Because all they needed was about a 10 second lead to push the Bozeman far enough out of the way to avoid the collision. To heck with trying to hail them or anything else. The priority was to avoid a collision.

I know, it sounds like nitpicking... but hey, when there are so many damned logic flaws in one episode, it kind of ruins the plausibility. It is still one of my more favorite episodes, but towards the bottom end of the hierarchy.

 

[Timo]

Reversing course is not something they would have done had they not found any messages. So logically, halting their progress forward makes perfect sense.

Does it? They got a message from their future selves, indicating a weird time loop. If there were no message, they would go forward - hence going forward is associated with the lack of a time loop, and is the choice to make if one wishes to avoid a time loop...

And so you're right--if this goes on for weeks, it does suggest that they should be contacted by Starfleet.

But Starfleet does not contact its Galaxy class starships on a regular basis. We know that categorically. Nobody knew where the Yamato was when Varley took her for an Iconian-finding joyride - yet Starfleet didn't consider the ship "missing". There was no way to establish that the Yamato could not have encountered the E-D on her way to the Morgana Quadrant in "Where Silence Has Lease", for example.

Even still, if Worf can check the time signal once they left the causality loop, certainly they should have been able to receive it during each loop...

Then again, a query apparently isn't a routine procedure. Is that perhaps because time discrepancies are very common due to relativistic travel and whatnot, and thus there's no alarm for a discrepancy of two days nor for seventeen? Perhaps some officer is supposed to pay attention to how many days of differential have been accumulated within a week of operations - but we're not dealing with weekly routine in this episode, because from the POV of our heroes, the episode only takes about a day!

Minor slips in time have been part of Starfleet routine ever since the earliest episodes of TOS anyway. So it does make sense that they wouldn't trigger immediate automated alarms.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JustKate]

I've always loved this episode. My Trek loving coworkers and I would refer to any reoccuring problem as we must be caught in a [Picard]"temporal causality loop."[/Picard]

I've always loved this episode as well. It was especially awesome when it aired for the first time.

Me too! Me too! I love this episode, and...no, nothing the least bit constructive to add except more gushing about how much I love it.

 

[Praetor]

I must add to the gush because I love it too. There do seem to be a few errors with the logic in it bt it's been so long since I've seen it that I can't really comment specifically. Still, it's enjoyable.

 

[Piper]

It's a great episode with the ultimate teaser - the Enterprise explodes! The big hole as far as why days have elapsed outside the time loop is a minor nuisance at the end, but other than that a great episode - who knew the Poker game could ever play such a pivotal role?

 

[Holdfast]

No, "3" was the most logical choice.

After all, Data had to send a message that only past Data had to interpret...and who better to know how he thinks than himself?

yeah, I'd pretty much go along with this interpretation. Data sends that message because it's what goes through his mind at the instant (and would likely do again the "next" time he's in that situation).