"Caretaker" Questions

[at Quark's]

Humans saw Vulcan Transporters, and it still took them almost a century to get their own approximations of that technology working right.

Sounds plausible, but is there any on-screen evidence for it ?

I believe we do know from an enterprise episode that the development of transporter technology took many years, though, so it's probably not not an invention that can be mastered easily ...

 

[Guy Gardener]

There's this from the pilot...

(A dark-skinned human and one with an English accent.)
TRAVIS: I heard this platform's been approved for bio-transport.
REED: I presume you mean fruits and vegetables.
TRAVIS: I mean Armoury Officers and Helmsmen.
REED: I don't think I'm quite ready to have my molecules compressed into a data stream.
TRAVIS: They claim it's safe.
REED: Do they indeed. Well, I certainly hope the Captain doesn't plan on making us use it.
TRAVIS: Don't worry, from what I'm told, he wouldn't even put his dog through this thing.
REED: (opening newly arrived box) This is ridiculous. I asked for plasma coils and they sent me a case of valve sealant. There's no chance I can have these weapons online in three days.
TRAVIS: We're just taking a sick man back to his homeworld. Why do we need weapons?
REED: Didn't you read the profile report on these Klingons? Apparently, they sharpen their teeth before they go into battle.

A Boomer who was raised in space and a Lieutenant in Starfleet are talking like they have never used a Transporter before.

 

[at Quark's]

There's this from the pilot...

(A dark-skinned human and one with an English accent.)
TRAVIS: I heard this platform's been approved for bio-transport.
REED: I presume you mean fruits and vegetables.
TRAVIS: I mean Armoury Officers and Helmsmen.
REED: I don't think I'm quite ready to have my molecules compressed into a data stream.
TRAVIS: They claim it's safe.
REED: Do they indeed. Well, I certainly hope the Captain doesn't plan on making us use it.
TRAVIS: Don't worry, from what I'm told, he wouldn't even put his dog through this thing.
REED: (opening newly arrived box) This is ridiculous. I asked for plasma coils and they sent me a case of valve sealant. There's no chance I can have these weapons online in three days.
TRAVIS: We're just taking a sick man back to his homeworld. Why do we need weapons?
REED: Didn't you read the profile report on these Klingons? Apparently, they sharpen their teeth before they go into battle.

A Boomer who was raised in space and a Lieutenant in Starfleet are talking like they have never used a Transporter before.

Yes, it's established that the transporter is relatively new to humans.... but how do we know for sure that vulcans had a transporter (almost) a century before humans ? I don't believe something like that has been stated or implied, like it is for warp technology or tractor beams. Though, as I already said, it certainly would be plausible.

 

[Guy Gardener]

WTF?

In 2162 it was discovered that frequent usage of transporters in use by the Federation were detrimental to living beings. While infrequent use was perfectly safe, using the transporters introduced single bit errors that over time could cause physiological damage. Admiral Jonathan Archer, for example, suffered neurological damage to such an extent that it became impossible for him to continue front line service. Captain Malcolm Reed was another individual that suffered damage from continual transporter use - his reproductive organs were damaged to the point that he was unable to have children. In the wake of these and other injuries being discovered the Federation decided that the transporter should not be used for living beings except in an emergency until transporters could be made safe. (ENT - Rise of the Federation novel: A Choice of Futures)

Right, Emery invents the Transporter before the Klingons, the Andorians, Vulcans and the Tellerites, even though Humanity, i.e. Enterprise doesn't formally meet these species for another 30 plus years...

Did the Vulcans SELL transporter technology to everyone else in the Alpha Quadrant for three Decades between Emery's invention and end of the Vulcan imposed Quarantine of humans to their home star system?

One act of industrial espionage in the 2130s, launched Vulcanian sales of transporter technology ahead of human expansion for the next few thousand years?

Weird.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Humans saw Vulcan Transporters, and it still took them almost a century to get their own approximations of that technology working right.

Sounds plausible, but is there any on-screen evidence for it ?

I believe we do know from an enterprise episode that the development of transporter technology took many years, though, so it's probably not not an invention that can be mastered easily ...

...if at all!

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

There's this from the pilot...

(A dark-skinned human and one with an English accent.)
TRAVIS: I heard this platform's been approved for bio-transport.
REED: I presume you mean fruits and vegetables.
TRAVIS: I mean Armoury Officers and Helmsmen.
REED: I don't think I'm quite ready to have my molecules compressed into a data stream.
TRAVIS: They claim it's safe.
REED: Do they indeed. Well, I certainly hope the Captain doesn't plan on making us use it.
TRAVIS: Don't worry, from what I'm told, he wouldn't even put his dog through this thing.
REED: (opening newly arrived box) This is ridiculous. I asked for plasma coils and they sent me a case of valve sealant. There's no chance I can have these weapons online in three days.
TRAVIS: We're just taking a sick man back to his homeworld. Why do we need weapons?
REED: Didn't you read the profile report on these Klingons? Apparently, they sharpen their teeth before they go into battle.

A Boomer who was raised in space and a Lieutenant in Starfleet are talking like they have never used a Transporter before.

Yes, it's established that the transporter is relatively new to humans.... but how do we know for sure that vulcans had a transporter (almost) a century before humans ? I don't believe something like that has been stated or implied, like it is for warp technology or tractor beams. Though, as I already said, it certainly would be plausible.

The Klingons back then had transporters that they had a casual use of. (e.g. Marauders)

The Andorians first knew nothing about transporter technology (The Andorian incident) but then developed site to site transporters. (Kir'Shara)!!! So they went from knowing nothing to Picard's era in only three years!!! Wow!!!


It seems everyone is different.

 

[q264]

As for "Mosaic", it's a good book. I do have some doubts about Jeri Taylor as a writer, she don't have the grip of the characters and messes up her stories with strange internal family relations and try to sugar-coat those as well which is even more visible in her other book "Pathways".

But the story in "Mosaic" is good, both the flasbacks to Janeway's past and the ongoing story which includes the Kazon-Vistik (who we never saw in any TV episode).

I have "Pathways" too though I haven't read that one yet either. I'm surprised to hear Jeri Taylor doesn't have a grip on the characters since she helped develop the show in the first place! Maybe that's the reason why Janeway is so unpredictable... Mulgrew's screen presence helps bring the character into focus but it's hard to get a good read on Janeway like you can with Picard or Sisko. She's all over the place in her reasoning. As for the books, I might skip the old novels for now and start with Christie Golden's "Homecoming". I really want this series to take off like I know it can! I know they eventually return to the DQ, am I the the only one who thinks it would be cool to have them encounter the Kazon again?

I'm watching S2 EP14 "Alliances" right now and Crewman Hogan tells Kathy to give the Kazon what they want, to which she replies "I'm sure you realize that would be a violation of the Prime Directive... Let me make it absolutely clear: I'll destroy this ship before I turn any part of it over to the Kazon." Way to lighten the mood after a funeral! Good to know Voyager rests safely in her steady hands. And I thought the Prime Directive was only intended for pre-warp civilizations? At what point does giving the Kazon water-making technology become a mission of mercy instead of an interference play?

 

[Guy Gardener]

I refuse to believe that the Vulcans after half a million years in space didn't have transporters since by the time time Emery was still trying to invent sub quantum beaming, the Vulcan's had already boxed the subject as a good laugh.

Here's the real reason. The Vulcans were bound by the Prime Directive not to effect the development of any alien cultures, and as piss poor as there were about that, midwifing mankind into the greater galaxy (4 days from Qu'Onos!), which is why the Vulcans were nice enough to pretend that transporters do not exist. If humans saw how well a Vulcan transporter worked, it would knock decades of their beta testing. This is also why the Andorians do not know what a transporter is, the Vulcans are doing their best to still pretend that the technology is impossible... Wait? That sounds familiar? So they did know that Time travel was possible but they didn't want the humans to know that it was possible?

The Malurians, who were trading partners with the Tellerites, who were wiped out by the Nomad probe in 2267, a century earlier tussled with Captain Archer in ENT Civilization, where their ship had working transporters, which was only a month or three after Enterprise went to Qo'noS.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I refuse to believe that the Vulcans after half a million years in space didn't have transporters since by the time time Emery was still trying to invent sub quantum beaming, the Vulcan's had already boxed the subject as a good laugh.

Here's the real reason. The Vulcans were bound by the Prime Directive not to effect the development of any alien cultures, and as piss poor as there were about that, midwifing mankind into the greater galaxy (4 days from Qu'Onos!), which is why the Vulcans were nice enough to pretend that transporters do not exist. If humans saw how well a Vulcan transporter worked, it would knock decades of their beta testing. This is also why the Andorians do not know what a transporter is, the Vulcans are doing their best to still pretend that the technology is impossible... Wait? That sounds familiar? So they did know that Time travel was possible but they didn't want the humans to know that it was possible?

The Malurians, who were trading partners with the Tellerites, who were wiped out by the Nomad probe in 2267, a century earlier tussled with Captain Archer in ENT Civilization, where their ship had working transporters, which was only a month or three after Enterprise went to Qo'noS.

Did you just forget to watch the episode where Shran transports Soval directly from his quarters into a torture chair with what could only be described as a site to site transporter?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Probably.

But I was looking for evidence that the others had transporters 30 something years before Enterprise, and could not find it.

Carbon Creek was the obvious place to look, but it wasn't there.

Was Emery Dickson the human inventor of the transporter, or the absolute inventor of the transporter?

They keep saying that Zephram Cochrane invented Warp drive, when they really mean that he was the human inventor of Warp drive, because the Vulcans already had it, and so did a lot of other species. In season four during those Orion episodes Archer is talking about how his father would bitch and rant about how those green blooded bastards were ####suckers for not helping him/telling him how to invent a warp 5 Engine. That they knew all the answers and were laughing at him like a punk.

(Archer Snr was suffering from Dementia.)

However, if they'd told him how a warp 5 engine works, would Hank have actually have invented anything?

That hardly makes Emery and Henry peers if one of them is inventing a magic new science the Vulcan do not understand or believe in and the other is repeating science problems the Vulcans licked 9 hundred years earlier.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Probably.

But I was looking for evidence that the others had transporters 30 something years before Enterprise, and could not find it.

Carbon Creek was the obvious place to look, but it wasn't there.

Was Emery Dickson the human inventor of the transporter, or the absolute inventor of the transporter?

They keep saying that Zephram Cochrane invented Warp drive, when they really mean that he was the human inventor of Warp drive, because the Vulcans already had it, and so did a lot of other species. In season four during those Orion episodes Archer is talking about how his father would bitch and rant about how those green blooded bastards were ####suckers for not helping him/telling him how to invent a warp 5 Engine. That they knew all the answers and were laughing at him like a punk.

(Archer Snr was suffering from Dementia.)

However, if they'd told him how a warp 5 engine works, would Hank have actually have invented anything?

That hardly makes Emery and Henry peers if one of them is inventing a magic new science the Vulcan do not understand or believe in and the other is repeating science problems the Vulcans licked 9 hundred years earlier.

I don't think Vulcans are very good at inventing new things, they just have a millennia head start on Warp drive and other concomitant technology. But humans are catching up at... warp speed!

 

[Guy Gardener]

According to TOS, it's a half a million year head start.

TOS Return to Tomorrow.

KIRK: That's twice you've referred to us as my children.
SARGON: Because it is possible you are our descendants, Captain Kirk. Six thousand centuries ago, our vessels were colonising this galaxy, just as your own starships have now begun to explore that vastness. As you now leave your own seed on distant planets, so we left our seed behind us. Perhaps your own legends of an Adam and an Eve were two of our travellers.
MULHALL: Our beliefs and our studies indicate that life on our planet, Earth, evolved independently.
SPOCK: That would tend, however, to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

According to TOS, it's a half a million year head start.

TOS Return to Tomorrow.

KIRK: That's twice you've referred to us as my children.
SARGON: Because it is possible you are our descendants, Captain Kirk. Six thousand centuries ago, our vessels were colonising this galaxy, just as your own starships have now begun to explore that vastness. As you now leave your own seed on distant planets, so we left our seed behind us. Perhaps your own legends of an Adam and an Eve were two of our travellers.
MULHALL: Our beliefs and our studies indicate that life on our planet, Earth, evolved independently.
SPOCK: That would tend, however, to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory.

That would make them even more pathetic, wouldn't it?

 

[IronMaiden]

It was a cool episode, when I started watching ds9.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Not if they built an empire using relativistic drives?

One bloke could waste 40 thousand years just circumnavigating their territory.

Bajoran history goes back that far too. Although they were talking about "written history" and not the use of advanced technology.

The Time of Awakening, when the Romulans left, was 2000 years before TNG's 6th season. According to balance of terror, the Romulans did not have Warp Drive between the Earth Romulan War. So you can see that it's all rife with inconsistencies.

 

[at Quark's]

I suppose the transporter has been invented many times over independently, as a lot of alien species our heroes meet for the first time have their own versions of it, even in the gamma and delta quadrant.

200.000 years ago, the Iconians had their portals, which seem to be even far superior to transporters.

So I'd say Emery was the human inventor only. Could the vulcans have had it earlier than humans ? Most probably, but then we don't see direct evidence of that. The vulcans have a huge headstart, but humans seem to tech up a lot faster...and it just might be possible that it requires an unconventional breakthrough that is hard for vulcans to make as their logic could hinder them ...

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Not if they built an empire using relativistic drives?

One bloke could waste 40 thousand years just circumnavigating their territory.

Bajoran history goes back that far too. Although they were talking about "written history" and not the use of advanced technology.

The Time of Awakening, when the Romulans left, was 2000 years before TNG's 6th season. According to balance of terror, the Romulans did not have Warp Drive between the Earth Romulan War. So you can see that it's all rife with inconsistencies.

You don't say!

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I suppose the transporter has been invented many times over independently, as a lot of alien species our heroes meet for the first time have their own versions of it, even in the gamma and delta quadrant.

200.000 years ago, the Iconians had their portals, which seem to be even far superior to transporters.

So I'd say Emery was the human inventor only. Could the vulcans have had it earlier than humans ? Most probably, but then we don't see direct evidence of that. The vulcans have a huge headstart, but humans seem to tech up a lot faster...and it just might be possible that it requires an unconventional breakthrough that is hard for vulcans to make as their logic could hinder them ...

You know humanity must have discovered fire thousands of times all over the Earth, over a period of tens of thousands of years. That's the problem when you don't write anything down...

 

[Guy Gardener]

This is why I hate the last episode of Enterprise.

Enterprise is mothballed because it is a piece of junk compared to the new fleet being put together to defend the coalition using the highest orders of technology from the charter worlds in the coalition.

How much of human discovery/science was told to "fuck off you remedial twit" because at least one of the other species involved could do better, while the head boffins were putting together those warp 8 Star Ships?

All of it?

Enterprise was the last human ship. 3000 years since the fall of Troy and we give up our birthright to coast along on hard work of generations of stalwart Vulcans.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

This is why I hate the last episode of Enterprise.

Enterprise is mothballed because it is a piece of junk compared to the new fleet being put together to defend the coalition using the highest orders of technology from the charter worlds in the coalition.

How much of human discovery/science was told to "fuck off you remedial twit" because at least one of the other species involved could do better, while the head boffins were putting together those war 8 Star Ships?

All of it?

Enterprise was the last human ship. 3000 years since the fall of Troy and we give up our birthright to coast along on hard work of generations of stalwart Vulcans.

If we got any information it must have been from the other species, the Vulcans would not tell Henry Archer squat about warp five engines.