Caretaker question

[Rhodan]

I´s been a long time since I´ve watched Caretaker but there´ something that bugs me. Ocampa do not seem to be only one who are suffering from low supplies of water and food. Kazons are displaying simillar concerns and even Neelix is amazed when he discovers how much water is on Voyager. So, does this mean that this huge area of Delta quadrant is full of planets transformed to deserts by Caretaker´s technology? That doesn´t seem to be consistent with a lot of worlds even in first two seasons and it doesn´t make sense that space traveling cultures would choose such worlds as colonies without constant supplies. Or have I the whole thing messed up?

 

[Timo]

Actually, the only Kazon who were ever said to be suffering from a lack of water were the small posse camping on the Ocampa homeworld.

And it's not even really said they would have lacked the technology to produce water. Rather, they are shown to be amazed by our heroes' ability to materialize water tanks out of thin air - an ability the Kazon civilization in general indeed lacks.

So I wouldn't rush to conclusions based on "Caretaker". Finding a stranded US Army squad short of water in the middle of Iraq doesn't mean the United States would have no water reserves and would be incapable of producing water through purification or oxidation of hydrogen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mrs Paris]

The ocampans had plenty of water in their underground city.

it is possible that there were just no M-class planets around and without replicators that means no water.

 

[Lynx]

Let me be big-headed enough to quote from my own website, the Kes Website at
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/

where I do have a page about Voyager mysteries and how to solve them:

According to what we saw in "Caretaker" the Kazon-Ogla who were living on the Ocampa planet had problems with finding water. Neelix too did seem to have that problem. Now, that looks and sounds a bit strange because there would always be a chance to find ice in space, at least on some planet nearby. They did have spaceships of rather good quality after all.

But there's a possible explanation for that problem. If we look at the Ocampa system, Ocampa is the fifth of six planets. According to the book "Star Trek Roleplaying Games, Aliens" which is the only source of information about the Ocampa system, except for the official Star Trek sources, the Ocampa system is the sun Caeleron plus six planet, five smaller ones plus a gas giant. The four inner planets are to small, hot and rocky to have any water. The fifth planet which is Ocampa has no water on the surface and the sixth planet is a gas giant, apparently without moons, maybe some small rocky asteroids orbiting it but in that case they are too small to contain any water or ice.

We can also assume that the wars and conflicts between the Kazon sects has made it very difficult for the Kazon-Ogla who are living on the Ocampa surface to travel outside the system. Maybe they are under siege from the Kazon-Nistrim or some other Kazon sect which makes it difficult for them to travel outside the system and difficult for other Kazon-Ogla ships to deliver water to them. As they don't want to leave Ocampa with its valuable Cormaline which they use to trade with, they have to live with the water problem, at least until they can make peace with other Kazon sects nearby or find water in some other way.

 

[Rhodan]

Thing is when Calluh was trying to create alliance of kazon sects he mentioned water once again altough he could simply refer to it as a basic need.

One can dislike early seasons of Voyager for many reasons but I must at least give them credit for portraying their initial path as dangerous underdeveloped wasteland.It certainly had some interesting potentials...

 

[exodus]

Didn't the Kazon mention that in their region of space the sects horde supplies and in order to aquire them you have to make deals or kill for it?

So we can assume one Kazon sect is hording all the water from the others and using it as leverage over the other sects & natives of that part of the Quaderant.

Isn't that how the Kazon operate?

 

[Rhodan]

Let me be big-headed enough to quote from my own website, the Kes Website at
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/

where I do have a page about Voyager mysteries and how to solve them:

According to what we saw in "Caretaker" the Kazon-Ogla who were living on the Ocampa planet had problems with finding water. Neelix too did seem to have that problem. Now, that looks and sounds a bit strange because there would always be a chance to find ice in space, at least on some planet nearby. They did have spaceships of rather good quality after all.

But there's a possible explanation for that problem. If we look at the Ocampa system, Ocampa is the fifth of six planets. According to the book "Star Trek Roleplaying Games, Aliens" which is the only source of information about the Ocampa system, except for the official Star Trek sources, the Ocampa system is the sun Caeleron plus six planet, five smaller ones plus a gas giant. The four inner planets are to small, hot and rocky to have any water. The fifth planet which is Ocampa has no water on the surface and the sixth planet is a gas giant, apparently without moons, maybe some small rocky asteroids orbiting it but in that case they are too small to contain any water or ice.

We can also assume that the wars and conflicts between the Kazon sects has made it very difficult for the Kazon-Ogla who are living on the Ocampa surface to travel outside the system. Maybe they are under siege from the Kazon-Nistrim or some other Kazon sect which makes it difficult for them to travel outside the system and difficult for other Kazon-Ogla ships to deliver water to them. As they don't want to leave Ocampa with its valuable Cormaline which they use to trade with, they have to live with the water problem, at least until they can make peace with other Kazon sects nearby or find water in some other way.

Sounds trustworthy enough.

 

[Timo]

Agreed - with emphasis on the fact that the Kazon on the planetary surface were the ones short on water, not the Kazon elsewhere in the quadrant.

Apart from that sorry posse, and from Neelix who had spent most of his time stalking those dirty sods and looking for an opening to free Kes, the only person to raise the issue of water is indeed Culluh in trying to forge an alliance in "Maneuvers". But this is what he has to say:

Culluh: "There is a ship filled with new technology. Devices that can make food, water, even weapons appear out of thin air!"

So it's really the replicators and transporters they are after, not the magic technology of water purifiers...

I wonder if the writers of "Caretaker" ever seriously considered making the Kazon "the folks who seek for water"? It is not clear from the pilot script whether there was such a misguided intention, or whether the thirst of the surface posse was just an incidental detail that wasn't intended to characterize an entire adversary species. It's a good thing in any case that the lack of water did not come to characterize the Kazon in general (even if the lack of bathing perhaps did).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mrs Paris]

Let me be big-headed enough to quote from my own website, the Kes Website at
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/

where I do have a page about Voyager mysteries and how to solve them:

According to what we saw in "Caretaker" the Kazon-Ogla who were living on the Ocampa planet had problems with finding water. Neelix too did seem to have that problem. Now, that looks and sounds a bit strange because there would always be a chance to find ice in space, at least on some planet nearby. They did have spaceships of rather good quality after all.

But there's a possible explanation for that problem. If we look at the Ocampa system, Ocampa is the fifth of six planets. According to the book "Star Trek Roleplaying Games, Aliens" which is the only source of information about the Ocampa system, except for the official Star Trek sources, the Ocampa system is the sun Caeleron plus six planet, five smaller ones plus a gas giant. The four inner planets are to small, hot and rocky to have any water. The fifth planet which is Ocampa has no water on the surface and the sixth planet is a gas giant, apparently without moons, maybe some small rocky asteroids orbiting it but in that case they are too small to contain any water or ice.

We can also assume that the wars and conflicts between the Kazon sects has made it very difficult for the Kazon-Ogla who are living on the Ocampa surface to travel outside the system. Maybe they are under siege from the Kazon-Nistrim or some other Kazon sect which makes it difficult for them to travel outside the system and difficult for other Kazon-Ogla ships to deliver water to them. As they don't want to leave Ocampa with its valuable Cormaline which they use to trade with, they have to live with the water problem, at least until they can make peace with other Kazon sects nearby or find water in some other way.

are you actualy using information from a role playing book????????

Sorry lady, books aren't canon, especialy ROLE PLAYONG BOOKS. But thanks for that laugh

 

[Lynx]

Let me be big-headed enough to quote from my own website, the Kes Website at
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/

where I do have a page about Voyager mysteries and how to solve them:

According to what we saw in "Caretaker" the Kazon-Ogla who were living on the Ocampa planet had problems with finding water. Neelix too did seem to have that problem. Now, that looks and sounds a bit strange because there would always be a chance to find ice in space, at least on some planet nearby. They did have spaceships of rather good quality after all.

But there's a possible explanation for that problem. If we look at the Ocampa system, Ocampa is the fifth of six planets. According to the book "Star Trek Roleplaying Games, Aliens" which is the only source of information about the Ocampa system, except for the official Star Trek sources, the Ocampa system is the sun Caeleron plus six planet, five smaller ones plus a gas giant. The four inner planets are to small, hot and rocky to have any water. The fifth planet which is Ocampa has no water on the surface and the sixth planet is a gas giant, apparently without moons, maybe some small rocky asteroids orbiting it but in that case they are too small to contain any water or ice.

We can also assume that the wars and conflicts between the Kazon sects has made it very difficult for the Kazon-Ogla who are living on the Ocampa surface to travel outside the system. Maybe they are under siege from the Kazon-Nistrim or some other Kazon sect which makes it difficult for them to travel outside the system and difficult for other Kazon-Ogla ships to deliver water to them. As they don't want to leave Ocampa with its valuable Cormaline which they use to trade with, they have to live with the water problem, at least until they can make peace with other Kazon sects nearby or find water in some other way.

are you actualy using information from a role playing book????????

Sorry lady, books aren't canon, especialy ROLE PLAYONG BOOKS. But thanks for that laugh

If you do read my post carefully, you will see that:

1) The role-playing book is mentioned only because it happen to contain the most detailed information about the Ocampa system, canon or not.

2) My theory about the water-problems is not based on that one, single book but all sources put together, most notably the TV episode itself.

So why mock me for coming up with a theory which is actually believable?

Besides that, I'm not a lady but I'm sure that you already know that.

 

[exodus]

Let me be big-headed enough to quote from my own website, the Kes Website at
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/

where I do have a page about Voyager mysteries and how to solve them:

are you actualy using information from a role playing book????????

Sorry lady, books aren't canon, especialy ROLE PLAYONG BOOKS. But thanks for that laugh

If you do read my post carefully, you will see that:

1) The role-playing book is mentioned only because it happen to contain the most detailed information about the Ocampa system, canon or not.

2) My theory about the water-problems is not based on that one, single book but all sources put together, most notably the TV episode itself.

So why mock me for coming up with a theory which is actually believable?

Besides that, I'm not a lady but I'm sure that you already know that.

Still glad to be back?

 

[Mrs Paris]

sorry I thought you were a woman

and no theory based on a ROLE PLAYING BOOK is believable

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
That's a bit of an unfair presumption, wouldn't you say?

 

[Mrs Paris]

^
That's a bit of an unfair presumption, wouldn't you say?

no, role playing is a GAME. To base a theory about something in a show on something that not only isn't canon, but is realy just a silly game is rediculous

 

[teya]

^
That's a bit of an unfair presumption, wouldn't you say?

no, role playing is a GAME. To base a theory about something in a show on something that not only isn't canon, but is realy just a silly game is rediculous

RPGs and fanfiction are not canon, but many times RPG players and fanfic writers work out explanations for canon that isn't as clear as it could be.

Nothing wrong with Lynx posting his explanation, and it reads perfectly plausible to me.

 

[Mrs Paris]

^
That's a bit of an unfair presumption, wouldn't you say?

no, role playing is a GAME. To base a theory about something in a show on something that not only isn't canon, but is realy just a silly game is rediculous

RPGs and fanfiction are not canon, but many times RPG players and fanfic writers work out explanations for canon that isn't as clear as it could be.

Nothing wrong with Lynx posting his explanation, and it reads perfectly plausible to me. :thumbsup:

if you think it's plausible that's cool. The beauty of an online forum is that we all have different opinions. But I still think that it's beyond silly to base a theory on a role playing game.

 

[Lynx]

The point is that my theory isn't based on the Role Playing Game book.

The only thing that this book states which wasn't stated in the TV episode or in the book "Caretaker" is that there are six planets in the Ocampa system, four rocky planets without water or ice, the planet Ocampa and a gas giant. Nothing more, and I do think that this assumption is believable.

But my theory wasn't based on that alone. We all know that the Kazon on the Ocampa planet had problems finding water despite having decent spaceships and Neelix was facing the same problem. Therefore I found it accurate to come up with an explanation that the planets in the Ocampa system couldn't provide water or ice and that the shortage of water also may be caused by a siege from some other Kazon sect. I still think that it is a plausible explanation.

Exodus wrote:

Still glad to be back?

Yes I am! I like it here.

 

[Tyberius]

if you think it's plausible that's cool. The beauty of an online forum is that we all have different opinions. But I still think that it's beyond silly to base a theory on a role playing game.

Hmm...I think Lynx is just giving proper credit, that this theory did not arise complete from the his mind, but is based instead on external sources outside of ST.

Had Lynx not given credit to a RPG, would that have made it more plausible?

One of the ways that RPGs are successful, is the detail to the worlds that they bring. While an episode of ST may only be an hour long and follow a set narrative, an RPG can be many hours between releases of manuals and follow no set narrative. This demands that the RPG provide an extensive basis and backstory for all characters and scenarios. Frankly, I think that the character descriptions and history of an RPG would be more internally consistent than those of a more traditional narrative.

Theories can, of course, come from many sources. Before we continue to provide further discussion, should there be any other sources which should not be admitted?

 

[exodus]

no, role playing is a GAME. To base a theory about something in a show on something that not only isn't canon, but is realy just a silly game is rediculous

RPGs and fanfiction are not canon, but many times RPG players and fanfic writers work out explanations for canon that isn't as clear as it could be.

Nothing wrong with Lynx posting his explanation, and it reads perfectly plausible to me. :thumbsup:

if you think it's plausible that's cool. The beauty of an online forum is that we all have different opinions. But I still think that it's beyond silly to base a theory on a role playing game.

All this shit is fiction anyway, what difference does it make what we base it on?

 

[CorporalClegg]

It's been a while since we had a good canon debate.

I really can't think of anything more utterly pointless that's been argued so much.