Cardassia: Great Power or Minor Power?

[Timo]

I don't think we can take Gul Madred on his word for a description of the true nature of past Cardassia. The civilization might have been bullying its weak neighbors just out of principle, using the (possibly artificially created) hunger as a flimsy excuse for the military rule and expansion policy. Among the locals, the bullies would rank as first rate; it would only be occasionally that Cardassia meddled in farther-flung interstellar affairs where it rated much lower.

We know Cardassia in the early 24th century fought with the Breen and the Klingons and did some tech exchange with the Romulans. Doesn't mean Cardassia would have been the equal of those opponents. The Klingons were far from home when fighting in "Way of the Warrior"; they would have been far from home during the old scuffles, too, and thus handicapped even if their power rating was greater.

Also, it remains in doubt whether the Bajoran resistance ever amounted to anything real. Episodes like "Cardassians" and "The Maquis" suggest that the pullback from Bajor was chiefly a matter of interior politics, a power struggle between the recently humiliated Central Command and the emboldened Detapa Council. The resistance had failed to evict the Cardassians during the preceding 50-60 years; the planet had already been strip-mined of everything valuable, which probably was the main reason the Central Command agreed to the withdrawal. But the pullback may have been a mistake in the greater interstellar scheme, depriving Cardassia of status much like Britain was deprived of status when it ceded India.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[GabeHimself]

Cardassia was the only Fascist Nationalist state we ever saw on Star Trek. So to respond to an earlier poster's thread that the Cardassians were missing something, I would say their big thing was TORTURE. How many Cardassian interrogations have we seen? How many lights do you see?

I always saw Cardassia as Nazi Germany. Dukat was Hitler. Watching Valkyrie this weekend I realize how much the writers emphasized this. From the Labor Camps to the entire episode Duet. So I guess is the Klingons are Russia and the Romulans are China Cardassia is Germany.

But to leave the universe for a moment and go to the Paramount lot, I think the Cardassians on NextGen were played down because every alien race on Trek was played down so the crew of the Enterprise looked awesome everytime they rerouted the phase emitters and targeted the weapon arrays. Look at the outcome of the McAllister Nebula, or Gul Evek's powerlessness in Preemptive Strike. Or how Cardassia couldn't defend its borders from a Nebula-class.

DS9 was a more complex show, Berman permitting. At some point, they became very strong, but still weaker than the Klingons. They needed industrial replicators desperately in For the Uniform. Once they joined the Dominion a Galor could destroy a Klingon B-o-P in one shot as seen in Once More unto the Breach.

The Cardies are my favorite alien race, primarily because they were the best developed. They were never cartoon characters like some other races. Name a non-bumbling, non-greedy, non-sexist Ferengi? The only interesting Klingon got a bat'leth through his chest after killing Worf's woman. And the Romulans turned from being emotional, passionate people (Balance, Incident) into some sort of grey, sludge during NextGen with Face of the Enemy being the last Romulan episode that came close to showing how they were in TOS.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The great thing about the Cardassians is that the three-dimensionality you're talking about was there right from the start. I'll never get tired of saying it: the way the Cardassians were portrayed in "The Wounded" was extraordinary...unlike so many "forehead aliens of the week," there were three VERY distinct personalities right from the start. They didn't begin as a parody of one isolated characteristic, which could've happened if they all acted like Telle (who I think the later "stereotypical Cardassian" was based on: arrogant, sneaky, pissy attitude towards non-Cardassians, etc.). You have Macet, who seems to be caught in a political tug-of-war between what he's required to do and what he WANTS to do (I think he wanted to avoid a war, because he was very quick to take Picard's offer and actually cooperated pretty well given how much Picard had to be trying his last nerves!), and the introspective Daro, who seems haunted by his past and driven by a need for absolution.

The repressive culture came later...but only after we'd already seen this variation among Cardassians. That was a hard precedent to ignore, I think--and I'm very glad that while the Telle-type Cardassian ended up being shown most often, that the writers didn't forget the complexity they'd given them.

 

[Sisko4Life]

Its all how you interpret it, really. IMO, it's suggested that Cardassia was somewhere in-between a great power and minor power. IIRC, Galor class vessels were very powerful back in the early 24th century because they were fighting Klingon Bird of Preys and Federation Miranda and Excelsior class vessels. However, the Cardassians ran out of resources to improve their technology, etc. so they developed their ruthless desire to gather and expand. Meanwhile, the Fed and Klingons had plenty of what they needed, so the Cardies were still tinkering with their weak Galors and the Klingon's now added Vor'cha and Negh'Vars to the mix and the Feds started playing with Nebulas, Akiras, and Galaxies. Now the Cardassians are outmatched. Keep in mind that the Cardiassians DID manage to stalement the Federation and Klingons in both respective wars. The Klingon invasion happened during struggles with the Maquis, and the loss of Obsidian Order, yet they still managed to blunt the Klingon offensive once the Cardassian fleet mobilized. And I remember a Klingon officer saying that the Cardassians used clever tactics like making them chase "sensor ghosts."

When the Dominion entered however, Cardassia under Dominion rule become the greatest threat to the Federation / Klingon alliance... ever. They went from 3rd rate... to 1st rate.

 

[Augustus]

Were the Cardassians comparable to the Centauri from B5?
Possibly a great power once, at least an arrogant power, still with aspirations for control and then they find themselves being pushed around, then latch onto a dark, evil power who ends up bringing them up for awhile before being responsible for their destruction...

Wow they have a lot in common

 

[mic of orion]

Minor power at best of times, at worst of times...

 

[Solariabsg25]

Were the Cardassians comparable to the Centauri from B5?
Possibly a great power once, at least an arrogant power, still with aspirations for control and then they find themselves being pushed around, then latch onto a dark, evil power who ends up bringing them up for awhile before being responsible for their destruction...

Wow they have a lot in common

Funnily enough when reading a previous post, the first thing that came into my head was the "Lions of the Galaxy".

I feel that at the time of the Cardassian/Federation war they were a major-player in their quadrant, but perhaps didn't realise how powerful the Federation actually were.

Being a resource-starved race, they simply couldn't maintain the war, and probably negotiated the treaty because they would lose, and the Feds having no interest in conquering them were more than happy to accept a treaty rather than drive them all the way back to Cardassia.

So for decades they continued to brood on their defeat and conquer everyone in sight to build themselves back up. The Phoenix exposed their military build-up before they were ready for Round Two, so they had to re-evaluate their plans.

Eventually, after the pounding they received from the Klingons Ducat made the deal with the Dominion. But, even then, Ducat was intending to use the Dominion to crush the Alpha Quadrant then turn on them, the height of arrogance. DId he ever imagine that the Cardassians on their own could drive the Dominion back to the Gamma Quadrant?

 

[Relentless]

Judging them by real world powers, the UFP is the US, the Klingons are the Russians and the Romulans are something similar the the Chinese (debatable). In this sort of order I would say that the Cardassians would be like the British; they can maintain control of the Falklands, and you don't want to be at war with them because it would take a large commitment to take them on, but if at war with one of the big three then they wouldn't stand a chance.

A poor choice as Britain has the 2nd largest navy in the world, the 2nd largest Airforce, the 3rd most armed (nuecleur and other missiles) and we got a pretty damn fine army who hold Iraq and Afganistan quite comfortably so in other words were more like the Romulans cos being british the word Empire runs through our veins

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Judging them by real world powers, the UFP is the US, the Klingons are the Russians and the Romulans are something similar the the Chinese (debatable). In this sort of order I would say that the Cardassians would be like the British; they can maintain control of the Falklands, and you don't want to be at war with them because it would take a large commitment to take them on, but if at war with one of the big three then they wouldn't stand a chance.

A poor choice as Britain has the 2nd largest navy in the world, the 2nd largest Airforce, the 3rd most armed (nuecleur and other missiles) and we got a pretty damn fine army who hold Iraq and Afganistan quite comfortably so in other words were more like the Romulans cos being british the word Empire runs through our veins

Plus I think the Daily Show once pointed out that Britain kicked the asses of another country for territor that they had never been to before. You don't mess with someone willing to do that.

 

[TheGodBen]

A poor choice as Britain has the 2nd largest navy in the world, the 2nd largest Airforce, the 3rd most armed (nuecleur and other missiles) and we got a pretty damn fine army who hold Iraq and Afganistan quite comfortably so in other words were more like the Romulans cos being british the word Empire runs through our veins

And if the Russians (the USSR of 30 years ago) or Chinese decided to invade tomorrow you would not win. You would put up one hell of a fight, it would take a long time, but you would not win. You do not have an empire like you did back in the 40s, you do not have the supplies to sustain yourself, you do not have the manpower to hold them off. They could send wave after wave after wave upon your country slowly dragging your defences down and eventually they would win.

And that was my entire point. The Cardassians are strong and able to support themselves, but if one of the big three goes after them then they will give them a bloody nose, but they would not win.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

You know, I wanted to be insulted, too, not because you compared Cardassia to Britain (I think the Cardassians are brilliant, btw), but because I thought you were calling us backward.

Now I realise you're right- at least from the war-waging point of view.... and about the technology bit, too.

I don't think you can compare Cardassia to any country, see. Even Nazi Germany doesn't fit, because they had the best technology in the world- and expansionist ideology wasn't uncommon back in those days. They lost the war because they lacked the manpower and were fighting on two fronts, not because their weapons and what have you were outdated.

 

[TheGodBen]

I don't think you can compare Cardassia to any country, see. Even Nazi Germany doesn't fit, because they had the best technology in the world- and expansionist ideology wasn't uncommon back in those days. They lost the war because they lacked the manpower and were fighting on two fronts, not because their weapons and what have you were outdated.

I never intended to say that the British were as bad as the Cardassians, I'm sorry if it came across that way, I was just comparing the two in terms of power. You can easily replace the British in my analogy with either the French or Germans; countries which were once very powerful but which would no longer be able to hold off against the larger powers. I don't think that the Cardassians were intended to be any particular power in the real world.

 

[Silversmok3]

I don't think you can compare Cardassia to any country, see. Even Nazi Germany doesn't fit, because they had the best technology in the world- and expansionist ideology wasn't uncommon back in those days. They lost the war because they lacked the manpower and were fighting on two fronts, not because their weapons and what have you were outdated.

I never intended to say that the British were as bad as the Cardassians, I'm sorry if it came across that way, I was just comparing the two in terms of power. You can easily replace the British in my analogy with either the French or Germans; countries which were once very powerful but which would no longer be able to hold off against the larger powers. I don't think that the Cardassians were intended to be any particular power in the real world.

I would compare Cardassia to Egypt more so than Britian. Ancient Egypt used to be 'the' global power, as Cardassia was during the Dominion conflict.
And it fell just as fast as the Egyptian civilization did, to the degree that ,like the modern country Cardassia will be in the second tier for a long time-albeit a cohesive , second tier society.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I don't think you can compare Cardassia to any country, see. Even Nazi Germany doesn't fit, because they had the best technology in the world- and expansionist ideology wasn't uncommon back in those days. They lost the war because they lacked the manpower and were fighting on two fronts, not because their weapons and what have you were outdated.

I never intended to say that the British were as bad as the Cardassians, I'm sorry if it came across that way, I was just comparing the two in terms of power. You can easily replace the British in my analogy with either the French or Germans; countries which were once very powerful but which would no longer be able to hold off against the larger powers. I don't think that the Cardassians were intended to be any particular power in the real world.

I suppose you're right about that, I'd never thought about it like this.

I'm not offended. I think you're onto something.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know, I wanted to be insulted, too, not because you compared Cardassia to Britain (I think the Cardassians are brilliant, btw), but because I thought you were calling us backward.

Now I realise you're right- at least from the war-waging point of view.... and about the technology bit, too.

I don't think you can compare Cardassia to any country, see. Even Nazi Germany doesn't fit, because they had the best technology in the world- and expansionist ideology wasn't uncommon back in those days. They lost the war because they lacked the manpower and were fighting on two fronts, not because their weapons and what have you were outdated.

Plus during WWII the Germans made a very big mistake in their war in Russia that being that when ingauging in a ground war in Russia never do it in winter.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

You think people would have learned from Napoleon.... but oh well.

 

[Timo]

Plus during WWII the Germans made a very big mistake in their war in Russia that being that when ingauging in a ground war in Russia never do it in winter.

It could be argued that the Germans made no mistake - but Mussolini did, dragging Germany into the war over Greece and crucially delaying the invasion of the Soviet Union.

Cardassians as the Space Nazis seems to be what the writers used as a general guideline, toying with things like racial contempt, concentration camps, forced labor, woes of occupation and so forth from the classic WWII angle - after all, that would have been the most familiar to TV audiences from other TV entertainment anyway. But the fun thing is, Cardassia remained a centerpiece alien race for so long, the duration of an entire show that lasted for seven seasons, that the writers got to try out a lot of different approaches, and often lost track of what other writers had attempted, thereby creating diversity and three-dimensionality. It's not really a matter of anything else besides exposure: Cardassians (along with Bajorans) got more of it than anybody else besides humans, leaving Klingons and Vulcans fighting for the shared third place, and Romulans and others for the remaining scraps!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mic of orion]

A poor choice as Britain has the 2nd largest navy in the world, the 2nd largest Airforce, the 3rd most armed (nuecleur and other missiles) and we got a pretty damn fine army who hold Iraq and Afganistan quite comfortably so in other words were more like the Romulans cos being british the word Empire runs through our veins

And if the Russians (the USSR of 30 years ago) or Chinese decided to invade tomorrow you would not win. You would put up one hell of a fight, it would take a long time, but you would not win. You do not have an empire like you did back in the 40s, you do not have the supplies to sustain yourself, you do not have the manpower to hold them off. They could send wave after wave after wave upon your country slowly dragging your defences down and eventually they would win.

And that was my entire point. The Cardassians are strong and able to support themselves, but if one of the big three goes after them then they will give them a bloody nose, but they would not win.

not sure if you put that right, China might have personal. but lacks technology, Russia lacks technology and personal (Russia has population of 139 million but only 113 million of these are Russians).

I'd say Brittan with Canada, New Zealand and Australia perhaps could be Romulan empire, Klingon empire lets say China and Russia combined, USA and rest of EU as Federation.

 

[CobraCommander]

A poor choice as Britain has the 2nd largest navy in the world, the 2nd largest Airforce, the 3rd most armed (nuecleur and other missiles) and we got a pretty damn fine army who hold Iraq and Afganistan quite comfortably so in other words were more like the Romulans cos being british the word Empire runs through our veins

And if the Russians (the USSR of 30 years ago) or Chinese decided to invade tomorrow you would not win. You would put up one hell of a fight, it would take a long time, but you would not win. You do not have an empire like you did back in the 40s, you do not have the supplies to sustain yourself, you do not have the manpower to hold them off. They could send wave after wave after wave upon your country slowly dragging your defences down and eventually they would win.

And that was my entire point. The Cardassians are strong and able to support themselves, but if one of the big three goes after them then they will give them a bloody nose, but they would not win.

not sure if you put that right, China might have personal. but lacks technology, Russia lacks technology and personal (Russia has population of 139 million but only 113 million of these are Russians).

I'd say Brittan with Canada, New Zealand and Australia perhaps could be Romulan empire, Klingon empire lets say China and Russia combined, USA and rest of EU as Federation.

If it wasn't for China's personnel, there would not be a North Korea today. In regards to the Cardassians, they were a people who saw that their military would put food on the table.

 

[Anika Hanson]

I would say that they are a minor power. Not as powerful as the federation or the Romulans. Maybe equal to or close to the Klingon Empire.