Captain Marvel (2019)

[Trekkin]

Which is sad because there's always been a female fanbase, they're just now being represented. There's a reason that Loki is getting a show and it's because every single woman loves Loki.

Funnily enough, a character whose best comics runs are when they’re a woman/gender fluid.

Which conveniently for Marvel, gives them an excuse for recasting expensive/bored actors.

 

[Jayson1]

Which is sad because there's always been a female fanbase, they're just now being represented. There's a reason that Loki is getting a show and it's because every single woman loves Loki.

We know Women have been fans for years. I think we know for example about how many of the early fanzine magazines I think were ran by mostly women when Trek got started. I do think white men proably were the majority at first but as sci-fi grew and became more popular the based expanded and it broaden it's appeal to bringing even more and more women and people of color into fandom. To a point now where fandom is big among all groups of people and isn't even limited to countries either. "Doctor Who" being big in the United States I think was something that just wasn't a thing for a very long time and now it's more than just a British only fanbase.


Jason

 

[Trekkin]

Everyone in the middle tries to take a more moderate approach

What’s the ‘moderate’ middle position between

‘Playing No Doubt’s ‘I’m Just a Girl’ is yet another feminist attempt to emasculate men’

and

‘No it’s not, you idiot’?

It just takes the testicles, but leaves the penis intact?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Have we not had these exact same arguments over and over and over for everything at this point. White men mostly but not all complain on twitter or youtube videos, basically saying they aren't sexist and even have a few examples as to why they aren't sexiest. Yet somehow it seems almost any new female lead genre movie gets bashed except for the lucky few that is mostly accepted like "Wonder Woman" were you get mostly universal praise with small moments like the all girl screening as the exception to these few accepted movies but that is usually a small portion of the reaction.

Then the counter argument is to complain about these things but then somehow all complaints with a movie is just more of these man babies. If the complainers use the usual talking points it's clear but if not it's just a conspiracy where anyone who does't like a movie is just lying. The idea that someone might just not like a movie isn't trusted because even though we talk about the man babies as a small minority I think the fear is they represent the majority. Kind of like how we use the "few bad apples" with cops but I think people are kind of thinking the other way often, but nobody says it because to be against cops is almost a sin.

Then the haters call them SJW's or one of the other standard insults. Liberals call them manbabies or some of the other accepted insults. Everyone in the middle tries to take a more moderate approach but nobody wants to stick their neck in to far when you got two sides going at each other or else it looks like you might be pulled into it. I don't know what to do when everything is a political conspiracy. I love conspiracies but I am thinking most of them are overblown takes on people simply having a few shared opinions or even opinions that only look similar if you don't really look to hard in what they are actually saying, as oppose to some kind of "agenda" . All of which is taking place in the same place called "social media" out in the open instead of some private setting where people just talk among themselves.

All of which you can say has nothing to do with "Captain Marvel" but it doesn't matter. Captain Marvel,The Last Jedi,Ghostbusters Doctor Who etc. It doesn't matter. All the arguments are the same so the details of the actual movie don't even matter once it gets started. If people don't want to see a female lead then don't go see the movie. If people hate the manbabies don't click onto their sites or talk to them. If you look at what they are doing you can tell that they measure their success not on whether they stop a movie but how many subscribers and clicks they get. Many of them get add revenue since for some reason ranting about nerd stuff on the internet is now something you can make money off. Which is weird because I was doing it for free for many years and nobody paid me money to hear why Jar Jar sucked.

Jason

Both sides are not equal Jayson. Tolerate the intolerant only works for the intolerant whose goal is abusing, marginalizing, and removing their target group-women, LGBTQ+, people of color, and anyone else not straight white male leading things.

 

[Refuge]

You know you can't win a sensible debate with me so you resort to childish memes and name calling. Every time.

So totally agree with you.

 

[Refuge]

Missing the point. Ripley was accepted in an era of explosive, testosterone-fueled films that makes this era look like an episode of Sesame Street by comparison. Why? Labeling every negative reaction to certain current female characters as sexism is a gross mischaracterization--a sweeping judgement not based on actually knowing why each person holds a certain opinion. Further, I'm aware of some of the YouTube reviewers some love to label as sexist, yet how can anyone hang the sexism label on them when some were among the same who praised Wonder Woman to no end. Reason?

Ripley was accepted because she was a character who delivered. Not an agenda.

 

[Jayson1]

What’s the ‘moderate’ middle position between

‘Playing No Doubt’s ‘I’m Just a Girl’ is yet another feminist attempt to emasculate men’

and

‘No it’s not, you idiot?’

The moderate stance is this person is most likely a sexist but he doesn't represent the majority so maybe we shouldn't make a mountain out of a mole hill over a few idiots and once they start with the clearly sexist stuff just stop listening to them and stop talking to them in general. Nobody has to say anything to anyone who is trolling. Or at least ask them to clarify why they think their opinion is true instead of just some crazy conspiracy theory they have come up with. Usually though if they can't say anything other than man baby cliche then it's best to realize it's hopeless with that person and just move on.

Jason

 

[Infern0]

Both sides are not equal Jayson. Tolerate the intolerant only works for the intolerant whose goal is abusing, marginalizing, and removing their target group-women, LGBTQ+, people of color, and anyone else not straight white male leading things.

I'm an LGBT Asian woman so i'm basically every minority there is

The percentage of actual people you are talking about is very very low

The main argument of a lot of the people you think you are talking about is inclusivity without exclusivity. i.e we don't need to make all/most white dudes in film stupid idiots, cowards or evil-doers to make the minorities look better by comparison.

Captain Marvel goes overboard in a few areas like the part with all the horrible men telling carol "she can't do it"

99% of men don't talk like that, I work in a male dominated field and i've never been "held down" for my race, gender or sexual orientation

When i came out my asian MOTHER disowned me and my straight white male father did everything he could to support me and my partner.

There's good and bad in every group and quite frankly i find the far left media and it's rabble rousing army to be patronizing, I do not need their help.

 

[Trekkin]

The moderate stance is this person is most likely a sexist but he doesn't represent the majority so maybe we shouldn't make a mountain out of a mole hill over a few idiots and once they start with the clearly sexist stuff just stop listening to them and stop talking to them in general. Nobody has to say anything to anyone who is trolling. Or at least ask them to clarify why they think their opinion is true instead of just some crazy conspiracy theory they have come up with. Usually though if they can't say anything other than man baby cliche then it's best to realize it's hopeless with that person and just move on.

Jason

That’s...not a centrist position. Or a moderate one really. Imagine a ref using the same logic when determining a penalty to see why. It’s just a third option.

Also, standing up to people ‘who won’t change’ does matter in a public arena. Not for their sakes, because who gives a shit about them.

But because of the undecided, easily influenced, or any of their targets that may be listening.

I'm an LGBT Asian woman so i'm basically every minority there is

The percentage of actual people you are talking about is very very low

The main argument of a lot of the people you think you are talking about is inclusivity without exclusivity. i.e we don't need to make all/most white dudes in film stupid idiots, cowards or evil-doers to make the minorities look better by comparison.

Captain Marvel goes overboard in a few areas like the part with all the horrible men telling carol "she can't do it"

99% of men don't talk like that, I work in a male dominated field and i've never been "held down" for my race, gender or sexual orientation

When i came out my asian MOTHER disowned me and my straight white male father did everything he could to support me and my partner.

There's good and bad in every group and quite frankly i find the far left media and it's rabble rousing army to be patronizing, I do not need their help.

1. How is announcing a bunch of your identity markers to slap down an agument not fit that dreaded ‘virtue signalling’ definition you provided again?

2. I’m a gay woman too. And hold the exact opposite position to you. Guess our ‘play gay to win points’ cancels each other out. How sad. Guess it’s up to all the other gays now...

3. There’s...three sexist dudes out of the entirely of universe in Captain Marvel. How is that not showing them to be the ‘minority?’

4. Even if I did believe ‘a minority’ of single bad actors causes the problem with sexism (I don’t, that’s dumb), since when did we wait for ‘the majority’ to have a problem before we tried to fix it?

 

[Jayson1]

Both sides are not equal Jayson. Tolerate the intolerant only works for the intolerant whose goal is abusing, marginalizing, and removing their target group-women, LGBTQ+, people of color, and anyone else not straight white male leading things.

I didn't say they are equal. I am saying is how we debate matters. How we conduct ourselves matters. We got to be the mature ones and not the ones getting into the dirt with petty name calling. I sort of see it as leading by example. We need to make arguments that have a little more substance. When you look at great leaders in the past you see that when they talk to people they hate they behave in a very reasoned way even if deep down they know the person they are talking to is total scum. Just back and forth fighting and name calling doesn't help. People on both sides just keep getting more and more angry and then what is the point once neither side is listening?

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

That’s...not a centrist position. Or a moderate one really. Imagine a ref using the same logic when determining a penalty to see why.

It’s just a third option.

Also, standing up to people ‘who won’t change’ does matter in a public arena. Not for their sakes, because who gives a shit about them.

But because of the undecided, easily influenced, or any of their targets that may be listening.

What influences people though? Why do people think those who yell loudest are somehow the most attractive to people who might be listening? If one person is going on about a SJW conspiracies and the other person is basically making a rational argument then the person who is talking conspiracies is just going to sound like a nut. We got to look like both the adult and also the most compassionate because that's sort of our strengths I feel as liberals but sometimes these petty fights just look terrible on us. Actually it even kind of looks worst because people kind of expect it from republicans especially these days but it's really off brand for us.

Jason

 

[Infern0]

The moderate stance is this person is most likely a sexist but he doesn't represent the majority so maybe we shouldn't make a mountain out of a mole hill over a few idiots and once they start with the clearly sexist stuff just stop listening to them and stop talking to them in general. Nobody has to say anything to anyone who is trolling. Or at least ask them to clarify why they think their opinion is true instead of just some crazy conspiracy theory they have come up with. Usually though if they can't say anything other than man baby cliche then it's best to realize it's hopeless with that person and just move on.

Jason

mhm

I don't watch midnights edge for the above reasons

That’s...not a centrist position. Or a moderate one really. Imagine a ref using the same logic when determining a penalty to see why. It’s just a third option.

Also, standing up to people ‘who won’t change’ does matter in a public arena. Not for their sakes, because who gives a shit about them.

But because of the undecided, easily influenced, or any of their targets that may be listening.



1. How is announcing a bunch of your identity markers to slap down an agument not fit that dreaded ‘virtue signalling’ definition you provided again?

2. I’m a gay woman too. And hold the exact opposite position to you. Guess our ‘play gay to win points’ cancels each other out. How sad. Guess it’s up to all the other gays now...

3. There’s...three sexist dudes out of the entirely of universe in Captain Marvel. How is that not showing them to be the ‘minority?’

4. Even if I did believe ‘a minority’ of single bad actors causes the problem with sexism (I don’t, that’s dumb), since when did we wait for ‘the majority’ to have a problem before we tried to fix it?

It stops you from accusing me of being a straight white male, which would mean im not allowed an opinion at all.

 

[Jayson1]

mhm

I don't watch midnights edge for the above reasons


It stops you from accusing me of being a straight white male, which would mean im not allowed an opinion at all.

Even if this was true why do you think this would represent the majority of people on the left? Are you really, really sure this is true and your not just reading into things and making assumptions based on a little paronia? Where is your proof? Even if you have meet someone on the internet who said, white people's opinions don't matter, why do you think the media people would have exactly this same view, especially since many of them are white men?

Jason

 

[Infern0]

Even if this was true why do you think this would represent the majority of people on the left? Are you really, really sure this is true and your not just reading into things and making assumptions based on a little paronia? Where is your proof? Even if you have meet someone on the internet who said, white people's opinions don't matter, why do you think the media people would have exactly this same view, especially since many of them are white men?

Jason

Many of the people on this site in recent times (it wasn't like this until about 2 years ago) position themselves in such a way as the give off the impression that's the way they feel. They call them things like stupid man babies and such, if they have a decenting opinion.

 

[Refuge]

Actually it even kind of looks worst because people kind of expect it from republicans especially these days but it's really off brand for us.

Jason

Don't be modest. You guys are really good at it.

 

[Trekkin]

It stops you from accusing me of being a straight white male,

‘Accuse’ is an interesting word to use. I was accused of having long curly locks, your honour!

Also, quote me. Put up or shut up. And no, you identifying yourself with complaints about manbabies doesn’t count.

What influences people though? Why do people think those who yell loudest are somehow the most attractive to people who might be listening? If one person is going on about a SJW conspiracies and the other person is basically making a rational argument then the person who is talking conspiracies is just going to sound like a nut. We got to look like both the adult and also the most compassionate because that's sort of our strengths I feel as liberals but sometimes these petty fights just look terrible on us. Actually it even kind of looks worst because people kind of expect it from republicans especially these days but it's really off brand for us.

Jason

‘What influences people?’ is not a rhetorical question, Jayson! Entire industries and fields of studies (plus, basic human communication) are built upon the ‘right’ or ‘rational’ message’ =/= the one that sticks. How did you reach adulthood, and not notice this?

But for starters: the mere act of repeating a message makes it ‘influential.’ That’s basic advertising 101.

Hence, the need for constant disruption.

 

[Jayson1]

‘What influences people?’ is not a rhetorical question, Jayson! Entire industries and fields of studies (plus, basic human communication) are built upon the ‘right’ or ‘rational’ message’ =/= the one that sticks. How did you reach adulthood, and not notice this?

But for starters: the mere act of repeating a message makes it ‘influential.’ That’s basic advertising 101.

Hence, the need for constant disruption.

But is a bad influence really helpful? I think I understand what you saying. If people hear a message over and over they will see wisdom in it just like if you call out a type of person then they will see your point of view? Me I think people often respond more to a person's personality more than what a person is saying. If someone acts nice people respond to that. In fact we even overlook certain flaws in a person if we like them. Yet if are arguments turn into petty fights then why would someone like us just because we might have the better ideas and message. It makes us look the same from the outside.

In fact anytime any side uses some of the arguments that are basically cliches now the issues become even less important in a debate.. How many times can someone be called a SJW or Man Baby before people stop caring about the fight and just wants it to go away because it's the same words used over and over. At least we got start using new slang because Like I said above we have been having the exact same arguments now with little change for at least 4 years now. I bet a could cut and paste two people going after each other over "Ghostbusters" mark out "Ghostbusters" and write in "Captain Marvel" and nobody would even notice.

Granted as Liberals you can't sacrifice your principals just to win over people who have views that often go very opposite of yours but if you do treat people with at least some respect they will eventually bend a little and it's easier to find ways to co-exist. You still got to call out bad people and bad behavior but you also got to make it seem like we don't think everyone on the other side is just like the worst of the worst from their side. I know some might say people we hate don't deserve respect but everyone deserves at least a little. Respect as in how we talk to each other. Not the respect in that we should value their terrible beliefs. Because like you said both sides are not always equal on the issues.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

Many of the people on this site in recent times (it wasn't like this until about 2 years ago) position themselves in such a way as the give off the impression that's the way they feel. They call them things like stupid man babies and such, if they have a decenting opinion.

Well i'm not a big fan of those kind of arguments but you have called people SJW's and gotten in some pretty nasty insults as well. It's not exactly bullying if both sides are doing it. Also when you tell members they are acting like all or typical SJW's you basically saying everyone here has got some agenda other than just coming here to talk about Trek and stuff and have fun. Which isn't the case.

Jason

 

[Trekkin]

Granted as Liberals you can't sacrifice your principals

Not a Liberal, and you vastly overestimate them.

(That’s a nice little ball of criticism, weary acknowledgement of how politics work, and a general statement about where Liberals actually sit on the political spectrum. And you people say I lack nuance.)

but if you do treat people with at least some respect they will eventually bend a little and it's easier to find ways to co-exist.

You know I can only have sex with my girlfriend without getting arrested, because people screamed blue murder and threw rocks...right?

Also, don’t particularly want to coexist with losers who review-bomb women-lead movies before they come out because ‘agenda!’

Sure, I’m not gonna try to force society baxk to previous decades in effort to get rid of them...send hate-mail to writers...accuse everyone around me of lying about every little things they say...But if they want to exile themselves because Sam Jackson washing dishes is scary, then good riddance. They can take their lazy ass, non-dishwashing friends with them.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Captain Marvel goes overboard in a few areas like the part with all the horrible men telling carol "she can't do it"

99% of men don't talk like that, I work in a male dominated field and i've never been "held down" for my race, gender or sexual orientation

Let me offer a different perspective. My father is a European Jew, my mother is Mexican. I pass as Caucasian. Perhaps 1% of the people I have met have deduced that I am mixed. That means I've been privy to many shitty opinions that people have about minorities. Yes, there are those who complain about minorities getting it easy and that they don't deserve their place. I have no doubt people are talking behind your back.