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Spoilers Captain America: Civil War - Grading & Discussion

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And speaking of Mjolnir, I would like to point something out in the whole Civil War debate: Vision was able to lift the hammer easily while Captain America could barely shift it. Shouldn't that mean that, when it comes to making ethical decisions about the Avengers' conduct, we should defer to Vision's judgment rather than Captain America's?
That might have had something to do with Vision being "newly born" at that point, and thus pure and innocent and uncorrupted. It seems he's taking on more flawed human foibles at this stage in his development. (And I found him an almost sinister figure at times in this movie.) The fact that Cap was able to shift it ever so slightly was IMO showing that he was more worthy than other humans ("the best humanity has to offer," so to speak) but ultimately still a "mere mortal" for whose hands the instrument was not really meant.

Also, I'm not sure we're supposed to think Thor himself is ethically infallible either.
 
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The "worthiness" of Mjolnir is something that sort of blurs that magic/science line in how Asgardians are treated in the MCU. (As noted earlier, they're more "aliens" than they are "gods.")

But, it is also a universe where magic exists (see: Dr. Strange, Scarlett Witch's powers, Quicksilver's powers and likely other powers granted by Loki's staff) so that's all it likely boils down to. Mjolnir "works" via magic.

It's likely not heavy in the way we think about it which is why it doesn't crush or destroy objects when its placed on them or hung from them, that or the enchantment on it makes the hammer heavy only when being wielded (for the sake of having more mass and energy for bigger impacts) but when at rest it's light enough to not destroy objects it's placed on. (Thor could, for example, "pin" a normal human with Mjolnir like he did with Loki at the end of "Thor.")

What is "worthy" is obviously variable or could be circumstantial and what actually makes one worthy or unworthy is just the enchantment's "decision." Maybe Odin's idea of "worthiness" when he put the enchantment on it.

Obviously it has nothing to do with physical strength since Hulk couldn't lift it and Iron Man couldn't lift it with repulsor rockets and him and Rhody combined couldn't lift it with repulsors. Cap could nudge it. Either because he's slightly worthy or because he's worthy but the hammer still possess enough weight (even if it may not apply all of it when at rest) that it couldn't be physically lifted by Cap and his worthiness. Which would mean Mjolnir weighs quite a bit since, as noted, Cap is quite strong to super-human levels.

Or it could be at that moment Cap's worthiness wasn't enough to fully lift it, it was a nod of respect from Mjolnir while also being a, "Nice effort, buddy." I suspect that at somepoint in the movies, likely in the Infinity War movies, we'll so see Cap fully wielding Mjolnir. It seems like too much of a thing to put in there to have it not pay off later since it seems a lot of what's happened and seen in these movies all pay off.

Many could complain or gripe about how in the previous movies the collateral damage was shrugged off but here it culminated into something bigger that's impacted the overall arcing story.

So, Cap's nudging Mjolnir is going to pay off. (I'd almost argue Black Widow's refusal to try will pay off too and we'll see her lift it as well.) Mostly with the Mjolnir stuff in that scene with Cap and Widow I'm going to call a "Chekhov's Gun" notion in the overall story in the MCU.)
 
I know I read an interview with either the Russo Brothers or the Civil War screenwriters who said that Vision's mistake in Civl War, shooting diwn Rhodey while "distracted", may have cost him his worthiness. I looked for the article but I can't find it, or I would have provided a link.
 
I suspect Mjolnir goes on a moment-by-moment basis and one screw-up doesn't strip you of your worthiness forever. (Because, Thor is kind of an idiot, so...) Vision may no longer be worthy for the moment due to his distraction and causing Rhodey's injuries but he can probably regain it once he gets his confidence and "purity" back.
 
Then there's the theory that Cap stopped trying to lift Mjolnir when it moved for what ever reason...maybe out of respect to Thor or he made some other personal decision not to lift it.
 
Recurring theme of heroes getting distracted and people getting hurt.

Vision gets distracted, misses his shot and Rhodey ends up paralyzed.

Captain America gets distracted, and a dozen or so Wakandans die in a bomb blast.

Superman gets distracted, and an entire room full of people die in a bomb blast.

I think Dr. Strange might be next on the list. Given his car accident and all.
 
Shouldn't the possibility of a rogue group of multiple superhumans working in concert for their own agenda be just as worrying, if not moreso, than such a group in the hands of a multinational government organization? The whole point of democracy is not that the people as a whole are inherently smarter or better than any particular individual or group. It's that spreading out the decision making process over a larger group of people minimizes the risk (as much as humanly possible) of any particular agenda abusing the system.

Perhaps, but consider this: if you were a government and you have that degree of power at your disposal...what the hell do you need the will of the people for? I'd say governments with access to mind control and the ability to flatten buildings at will is a much bigger threat to democracy than criminals with access to mind control and the ability to flatten buildings at will.

Rogue groups are a problem but somewhat countered by the existence of groups like the Avengers, the Secret Warriors and sooner or later, the Defenders. Even so, there's no reason why you can't have government sponsored groups. The distinction between that and what the Accords is trying to do is that they should be employees of the state and there of their own free will. Just like police, just like soldiers, just like firefighters, just like paramedics.

To my mind what the Accords should really be about is 1) protecting the rights of the super-powered citizens to not be locked up without cause, dissected and enslaved 2) limit the extent to which a nation may deploy their super-human assets oversees and 3) forbid them from being deployed domestically to quell civil unrest.
 
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Obviously it has nothing to do with physical strength since Hulk couldn't lift it and Iron Man couldn't lift it with repulsor rockets and him and Rhody combined couldn't lift it with repulsors. Cap could nudge it. Either because he's slightly worthy or because he's worthy but the hammer still possess enough weight (even if it may not apply all of it when at rest) that it couldn't be physically lifted by Cap and his worthiness. Which would mean Mjolnir weighs quite a bit since, as noted, Cap is quite strong to super-human levels.

I always assumed Cap was just going along with the party game and really didn't want to lift it.

Then there's the theory that Cap stopped trying to lift Mjolnir when it moved for what ever reason...maybe out of respect to Thor or he made some other personal decision not to lift it.

This is close to what I thought except I don't think he realized he was lifting it and stopped. He just gave it a try, it didn't seem to move to him and just quit. Notice how little he strained compared to the others. It didn't appear that anyone but Thor noticed the little bit of movement so I don't think Cap did, either. After all, everyone else was watching, if it really visibly moved they would have all noticed, but Thor's reaction is the only one shown. I could imagine Tony or Rhodey or any of them saying "oh look at that!" but no one said anything, so based on that I conclude their off screen reactions were not noticing it. And Thor's reaction was presented as surprise he tried to contain not to alert anyone, including Cap. If Thor was to say, "Oh boy" or whatever Asgardians say, Cap might have noticed and given it a better try.

It's also just possibly a Chekov's Gun for Vision lifting it later with no down the road significance. And Cap did lift the hammer in Thor #390 but that's another continuity, not definitive here, but possible basis for the event.
 
A possible issue is what defines "Worthy"?

Philosophical quantitative worthiness, or Odin's gut and Odin's standards.

Odin turned one of his son's into a tree.

He's a prick.

(Which if I recall, is how Loki defeated that Tree Curse.)

Oh, and Balder was a bastard Odin never owned up to.

Hypocritically he judges worthiness?

No, it's not the hammer.

It's a (positive?) "curse" put on the hammer by Odin, therefore Odin created the parameters by which worthiness is gauged by the Hammer, even though Odin isn't actually there to make the dcisions himself... But then it could be one of those "Computer make an Opponent capable of defeating Data" deals, where the Alfather didn't understand completely the words he was using.

Cool?
 
^This. People project their own standards of worthiness to the test, when it's about Odin's standards. He could care less about things like how humans side on a human political issue.
 
I'd bet a big happy dog (like a lab or Golden Retriever) could lift Mjolnir. "Fetch!" :D
 
The spectators in Thor 1 could not move it even with heavy machinery. Neither could Shield.
The fact Vision is a machine has nothing to do with it.
 
The spectators in Thor 1 could not move it even with heavy machinery. Neither could Shield.
The fact Vision is a machine has nothing to do with it.

That's true, it just ripped the bed right off Stan Lee's truck. Which sort of brings us to Cap's question at the end of Ultron, "... if you put the hammer on an elevator..." on the stage. Would the elevator be able to go up? (Hell, would the hammer drag the elevator down against its brakes?)

So the enchantment on the hammer extends past a person physically holding it and onto the person holding anything attached to the hammer.

So... Could someone lift the hammer by proxy? That is, pick-up someone who's worthy and is already holding the hammer?
 
The elevator would still go up and down, Mjolnir would remain "stuck" to the floor of it. Anyone getting in would not be able to lift it anyway. The hammer just seems to stay stationary relative to the surface it's in contact with.

Which is why it kept Loki pinned to the Rainbow Bridge and not just splattering right through him and shattering the surface of the bridge underneath him. Or stayed on the hanger floor of the Helicarrier instead of going through the deck and plumeting down to Earth below.
 
But what if Thor puts the hammer down, holds the handle and Hulk punches him? I'm betting he spins around the hammer but doesn't go anywhere unless he tries to pick it up while spinning.
 
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