Can't pray in school?

[pookha]

a little pray will not kill you! maybe it make you a better person! there bigger things than the us govermemt! like the being that made us! god said thou shell not any god but me! the us goverment ! GOD is number 1! not the us contures

All assuming that Yahweh is the one true God, which most of us do not assume.

Sources and data to verify your claim, please. And this board is not a representative population sample, so please do not attempt that. If you're trying to claim that those of the three Abrahamic religions are not a significant part of the population (over half at least in the US), more if you count world population, that dog ain't gonna hunt.

a lot depends on how you define being religious and belonging to a church.
a lot of people say they belong to a church ect but hardly ever beyond christmas darken the doors of the church.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

All assuming that Yahweh is the one true God, which most of us do not assume.

Sources and data to verify your claim, please. And this board is not a representative population sample, so please do not attempt that. If you're trying to claim that those of the three Abrahamic religions are not a significant part of the population (over half at least in the US), more if you count world population, that dog ain't gonna hunt.

The Christian majority status (about 75%) is irrelevant. Individual rights like religious liberty are not subject to majority rule.

While those rights ARE individual--the problem is that you're attempting to make it look as though believers are in the minority and thus a mere lunatic fringe in order to inflate the perceived popularity of your own beliefs.

 

[Marie1]

I'm religous, and I wouldn't have cared for it, as a lot of prayers are just a few lines repeated...

The year I went to a Christian school, that wasn't my experience...a lot of time was given over to prayer requests, which meant you learned a lesson about compassion for your fellow students, as well as having the opportunity to pray for their requests and share your own.

Some teachers led the prayers--other teachers invited students to do so. It was anything but a bland, rote experience.

Interesting... my experience is only in the public system, so that wouldn't really be a good idea due to many who aren't Christian, or even among Christians, the "experience" is so varied.

I... I personally would rather pray etc. on my own time... though I do like that the prayers there weren't by rote, and required thought, I do think that rote could be something that would happen- esp. in classes where teachers didn't like the idea. Religious topics and discussions came up in classes of course, and I participated, but I think I actally would've had a hard time if the religion were part of the system...

Not sure if what I'm typing = what I'm trying to say... :S

 

[ThankQ]

Sources and data to verify your claim, please. And this board is not a representative population sample, so please do not attempt that. If you're trying to claim that those of the three Abrahamic religions are not a significant part of the population (over half at least in the US), more if you count world population, that dog ain't gonna hunt.

The Christian majority status (about 75%) is irrelevant. Individual rights like religious liberty are not subject to majority rule.

While those rights ARE individual--the problem is that you're attempting to make it look as though believers are in the minority and thus a mere lunatic fringe in order to inflate the perceived popularity of your own beliefs.

WOAH! From "the majority of us do not believe in Yahweh" you gleened: "believers are in the minority and thus a mere lunatic fringe"

Explain that to me.

Also, I did not say those who believe in God a minority, I said: All assuming that Yahweh is the one true God, which most of us do not assume.

Most of the world DOES NOT worship Yahweh.

---

You go off on me for saying "most" as though I'm saying that Christians are a tiny group. "Most" can be as little as half plus one.

-----

You found so much insult in such a simple, benign, statement. You had to read SO deeply to get that stuff. Problem is, you were reading deeply in YOUR mind, not mine.

 

[iguana_tonante]

WOAH! From "the majority of us do not believe in Yahweh" you gleened: "believers are in the minority and thus a mere lunatic fringe"

Explain that to me.

Also, I did not say those who believe in God a minority, I said: All assuming that Yahweh is the one true God, which most of us do not assume.

Most of the world DOES NOT worship Yahweh.

---

You go off on me for saying "most" as though I'm saying that Christians are a tiny group. "Most" can be as little as half plus one.

-----

You found so much insult in such a simple, benign, statement. You had to read SO deeply to get that stuff. Problem is, you were reading deeply in YOUR mind, not mine.

Word.

 

[Marie1]

The Christian majority status (about 75%) is irrelevant. Individual rights like religious liberty are not subject to majority rule.

While those rights ARE individual--the problem is that you're attempting to make it look as though believers are in the minority and thus a mere lunatic fringe in order to inflate the perceived popularity of your own beliefs.

WOAH! From "the majority of us do not believe in Yahweh" you gleened: "believers are in the minority and thus a mere lunatic fringe"

Explain that to me.

Also, I did not say those who believe in God a minority, I said: All assuming that Yahweh is the one true God, which most of us do not assume.

Most of the world DOES NOT worship Yahweh.

---

You go off on me for saying "most" as though I'm saying that Christians are a tiny group. "Most" can be as little as half plus one.

-----

You found so much insult in such a simple, benign, statement. You had to read SO deeply to get that stuff. Problem is, you were reading deeply in YOUR mind, not mine.

I think that she meant that the majority of the U.S. believe in God. A large portion of the population of the earth are "religious"-not that the majority of people on earth believe in Yahweh (tho many may believe in one God, and not call him "Yahweh...).

Only ~1/3 % of the population of earth IIRC "claim" be Christian, and that was a while ago, possibly counting the people who are "Christian" because they needed to be to go to school in some developping lands, etc.

 

[Hoser]

A large portion of the population of the earth are "religious"-not that the majority of people on earth believe in Yahweh (tho many may believe in one God, and not call him "Yahweh...).

Only ~1/3 % of the population of earth IIRC "claim" be Christian, and that was a while ago, possibly counting the people who are "Christian" because they needed to be to go to school in some developping lands, etc.

IIRC, the vast majority of the earth is 'religious', 33%? label as Christian (all the major Jesus brands), and 21%? Islam and a very small percentage Jewish. The rest are Hindu/Buddhist/tribal/misc.
So that would be a majority who worship Yahweh, since Christianity, Islam and Judaism all worship the same God just with different methods.
(the above was done by memory, someone can correct me on numbers)
In fact, of all religious, those that spring from Christ (going from Catholicism to Rastafarianism) are the majority, even though they differ.

 

[ThankQ]

A large portion of the population of the earth are "religious"-not that the majority of people on earth believe in Yahweh (tho many may believe in one God, and not call him "Yahweh...).

Only ~1/3 % of the population of earth IIRC "claim" be Christian, and that was a while ago, possibly counting the people who are "Christian" because they needed to be to go to school in some developping lands, etc.

IIRC, the vast majority of the earth is 'religious', 33%? label as Christian (all the major Jesus brands), and 21%? Islam and a very small percentage Jewish. The rest are Hindu/Buddhist/tribal/misc.
So that would be a majority who worship Yahweh, since Christianity, Islam and Judaism all worship the same God just with different methods.
(the above was done by memory, someone can correct me on numbers)
In fact, of all religious, those that spring from Christ (going from Catholicism to Rastafarianism) are the majority, even though they differ.

While it is techinally correct to say that both Christians and Muslems believe the tribal diety named Yahweh, this is little more than an academic reality.

It is misleading to suggest they should be counted together. Now, I'm guessing you were doing basically to be accurate. And factually, you are correct. Perhaps I should have been more precise by saying "Your incarnation of Yahweh".

I'd love to see some numbers on how many American Christians actually realize their god is the same god as Osama Bin Laden. How many Christians are aware that they are praying to the same god that every Muslim is praying?

 

[Hoser]

It is misleading to suggest they should be counted together.

Well, even if you count out Muslims, Christians still hold the bigger portion overall. Of course even that could be seperated by those who think the other is worshipping a different God, even though they all spring from the same root.

I'd love to see some numbers on how many American Christians actually realize their god is the same god as Osama Bin Laden. How many Christians are aware that they are praying to the same god that every Muslim is praying?

I remember there being an even more interesting poll on that one, but I would bet that you'd have portions that even think that Catholics pray to a different God. :/

 

[Marie1]

A large portion of the population of the earth are "religious"-not that the majority of people on earth believe in Yahweh (tho many may believe in one God, and not call him "Yahweh...).

Only ~1/3 % of the population of earth IIRC "claim" be Christian, and that was a while ago, possibly counting the people who are "Christian" because they needed to be to go to school in some developping lands, etc.

IIRC, the vast majority of the earth is 'religious', 33%? label as Christian (all the major Jesus brands), and 21%? Islam and a very small percentage Jewish. The rest are Hindu/Buddhist/tribal/misc.
So that would be a majority who worship Yahweh, since Christianity, Islam and Judaism all worship the same God just with different methods.
(the above was done by memory, someone can correct me on numbers)
In fact, of all religious, those that spring from Christ (going from Catholicism to Rastafarianism) are the majority, even though they differ.

I personally don't consider "religious" as = Christian, but those numbers are ringing a bit of a bell, cuz I thought the "Christian" stat was ~2 billion, and at the time, the world's population was about... 6 billion. But I'm not sure how they got to that number, I mean, there are some Christians underground in China... and I consider myself Christian, but I don't really flow with most of the doctine, so most Christians probably wouldn't consider me one...

I'd be tempted to throw the Hindus into the "religious" section too, as they have like a lot of gods and godesses; some members of my extended family practice it.

 

[StarryEyed]

Sources and data to verify your claim, please. And this board is not a representative population sample, so please do not attempt that. If you're trying to claim that those of the three Abrahamic religions are not a significant part of the population (over half at least in the US), more if you count world population, that dog ain't gonna hunt.

The Christian majority status (about 75%) is irrelevant. Individual rights like religious liberty are not subject to majority rule.

While those rights ARE individual--the problem is that you're attempting to make it look as though believers are in the minority and thus a mere lunatic fringe in order to inflate the perceived popularity of your own beliefs.

No, I am most definitely NOT attempting to do that. Maybe you are confusing me with somebody else? Did I not acknowledge that Christians enjoy a 3/4 majority in the U.S.?

I jumped in here to point out the fact that it doesn't matter squat who has a majority, who's beliefs are generally respected or not respected or who is considered to be "fringe." EVERYBODY in the USA is accorded freedom of religion. It doesn't matter if you worship Jesus or the Cosmic Tapioca Pudding.

And in order to maintain that freedom, the government may not choose sides. The government cannot give support to one religion while declining to support another. That is why public schools can never get involved in the practice of religion. Students can do it themselves all they want but they cannot commandeer the machinery of the government-run school for the purposes of promoting their own religion - unless the Muslims, Wicaans and Satanists get to do it too. I wonder how much Christians would like that!

 

[T'Girl]

Odd that the nations whose schools outperform those of the US are invariably less religious...

Religious schools in America have better academics and college preparation than public schools, much lower drop out rate too.
http://www.publicschoolreview.com/articles/5

As others have noted, secular private schools have the same results. It's a factor of being a private school, not a religious school. Are you going to admit that, or are you going to repeat your lie at the next opportunity?

iguana tonante, I was responding to Colonel Greens statement. If "less religious" nations outperformed US schools, well it sounds like he was saying that being religious was the determing factor. If this was so, then secular private schools would out perform religious private schools and secular public schools would also outperform private religious schools. If religion was the problem. But this isn't the case, and that was the point I was making. The Public School Review article that I referenced made clear that ALL private schools have better academics, if I was trying to hide this I probably shouldn't have provided a link (did you even skim the article?).

The religious extremists want organized prayer in public schools ...

And the non-extremist, religious mainstream wants it too. Imagine that.

Non-extremist, religious mainstream does not want that, if they value the law of the land. If you want it, means you are a religious extremist and you just don't know it.

Sweetness, you can have the utmost respect for the law and still want something that the (current) law restricts.

 

[DonIago]

^Though, as someone else stated, private schools can always eliminate the poor performers, while public schools don't have that option.

 

[StarryEyed]

Sweetness, you can have the utmost respect for the law and still want something that the (current) law restricts.

So you WANT to be able to co-opt the machinery of government to spread your religion. That definitely makes you an extremist by U.S. standards. Individual religious freedom is a core right in this country.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

And the non-extremist, religious mainstream wants it too. Imagine that.

Non-extremist, religious mainstream does not want that, if they value the law of the land. If you want it, means you are a religious extremist and you just don't know it.

Sweetness, you can have the utmost respect for the law and still want something that the (current) law restricts.

Likewise, you can still respect the law and be an extremist if your goal is to change legislation to force people of different or no religious beliefs to sit through or even recite a prayer at school.

Why do they need to set aside time to pray at school? Are the students incapable of doing it quietly on their own? Are they incapable of doing it at lunch or in after-school groups? Do they not have enough time to pray the 17.5 hours a day and 185 days a year that the average American student is not in school? Are they unable to attend private religious schools or homeschooling?

The only reason setting aside time for voluntary prayer or conducting mandatory prayer in schools gets pushed so hard is to say to kids "this is the dominant religion of the United States and you better fall in line." What logical argument is there for it that can't be handled quietly and individually or on your own free time?

 

[Marie1]

While it is techinally correct to say that both Christians and Muslems believe the tribal diety named Yahweh, this is little more than an academic reality.

It is misleading to suggest they should be counted together. Now, I'm guessing you were doing basically to be accurate. And factually, you are correct. Perhaps I should have been more precise by saying "Your incarnation of Yahweh".

I'd love to see some numbers on how many American Christians actually realize their god is the same god as Osama Bin Laden. How many Christians are aware that they are praying to the same god that every Muslim is praying?

I guess I should be more specific, cuz as a prof. brought out, does there need to be a God to have a religion? Tho then I guess you wouldn't be necessarily praying, so I guess I'm taking the thread off course... Tho if we were talking about % of the earth's pop. who are religious (not to be read as Christian) I'd include the Muslims, the Hindus, etc.

I'd think that if the two groups actually had a friendly chat, at least they could find common ground in "we both believe in one God"... lol

Sorry, I think I missed a piece of this thread somehow between posts... o.0

 

[Commander Rabbit]

Odd that the nations whose schools outperform those of the US are invariably less religious...

On the other hand, those of us (in the US) of a certain age grew up in a more religious culture AND got a better education.

I don't think religion (or lack thereof) and quality of education are directly related.

 

[Marie1]

^ Old enough to get get a paddlin'???

 

[iguana_tonante]

If religion was the problem. But this isn't the case, and that was the point I was making.

Should I quote you again? "Religious schools in America have better academics and college preparation than public schools, much lower drop out rate too." I see no mention of private school. So that was definitevely not the point you were making.

Sweetness, you can have the utmost respect for the law and still want something that the (current) law restricts.

So you WANT to be able to co-opt the machinery of government to spread your religion. That definitely makes you an extremist by U.S. standards. Individual religious freedom is a core right in this country.

Again, word.

 

[Commander Rabbit]

^ Old enough to get get a paddlin'???

Not where I was, but in other parts of the country, yes.