No one has forgotten that era. There are still books, fanfics, and message board posts oozing out of every orifice.
Can we talk about TNG for a minute?
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The series was fantastic. Even the first two seasons. Some would say especially the first two seasons. They're playing around with TOS now but they could have just as easily done TNG. The main thrust of the movie was a teens/twenties reboot Trek cast and that could have been any Trek series. TOS has more of a mystique about it and most of the cast is too far removed from the original characters, if simply by being deceased as we all will one day. ...Barring something awesome. But I digress. I doubt they'll ever do a young TNG movie like STXI and that's too bad because I'd take any good TNG after all those crappy movies that rarely achieved series level excellence.
It's been a long time since I've watched the whole series, but without the next generation, I probably wouldn't be a Star Trek fan. I still enjoy reading the novels to see what the characters are up to post-Nemesis.
TNG forgot the fun part of the TOS formula. It became a drama more than a fun adventure. As one poster put it so aptly, TNG became full of itself. It was pretty good drama, but rarely achieved adventure.
--- TOS was about pioneers blazing new territory, dispensing cowboy diplomacy, etc.
--- TNG was about administrating established bureaucracy, arbitrating treaties, etc.
TNG was about governing the territory explored by TOS. Instead of boldly going they were administrating. It is not easy to create excitement and adventure in this kind of atmosphere. TOS and TNG were born of different eras and their respective futures depicted those eras.
ST09 went back to the roots of TOS to capture the excitement and adventure of that series. IMO, this could not have been done-at least to the same extent- with TNG. This is why the series which built upon TNG were not as successful either. There was a sense of "been there, done that" rather than boldly going to new and unexplored places.
VOY had the potential to capitalize on this idea, because they were in brand new territory (Delta Quadrant), yet somehow retained the "BTDT" feel.
ENT was trapped by its predecessors' canon. We all knew what a Klingon/Andorian/etc. was... and in our minds what they should be like. The problem was: how do you make the known seem new and unknown?
ST09 creators understood this so they went back to TOS roots and left behind the years of canon which trapped other series. By destroying Vulcan and killing off Amanda, Abrams and company told viewers, "Forget everything you thought you knew about Star Trek. We are boldly going where Trek has not gone before." Judging by the success of ST09, it worked.
--- TOS was about pioneers blazing new territory, dispensing cowboy diplomacy, etc.
--- TNG was about administrating established bureaucracy, arbitrating treaties, etc.
TNG was about governing the territory explored by TOS. Instead of boldly going they were administrating. It is not easy to create excitement and adventure in this kind of atmosphere. TOS and TNG were born of different eras and their respective futures depicted those eras.
ST09 went back to the roots of TOS to capture the excitement and adventure of that series. IMO, this could not have been done-at least to the same extent- with TNG. This is why the series which built upon TNG were not as successful either. There was a sense of "been there, done that" rather than boldly going to new and unexplored places.
VOY had the potential to capitalize on this idea, because they were in brand new territory (Delta Quadrant), yet somehow retained the "BTDT" feel.
ENT was trapped by its predecessors' canon. We all knew what a Klingon/Andorian/etc. was... and in our minds what they should be like. The problem was: how do you make the known seem new and unknown?
ST09 creators understood this so they went back to TOS roots and left behind the years of canon which trapped other series. By destroying Vulcan and killing off Amanda, Abrams and company told viewers, "Forget everything you thought you knew about Star Trek. We are boldly going where Trek has not gone before." Judging by the success of ST09, it worked.
By what metric was TOS "more successful" than TNG?
By what metric was TOS "more successful" than TNG?
I don't think you can measure the two series against each other. They were made in different eras with different constraints.
I do believe that Star Trek is more fondly remembered by general audiences than The Next Generation and has had a better shelf life. The fact that Star Trek played a major part in The Next Generation's first big screen outing twenty five years after the series was canceled and that The Next Generation left the big screen less than ten years after it left the small screen. Picard and company just didn't leave the same mark as the original gang (even though their Neilsen ratings were better).
The fact that Star Trek played a major part in The Next Generation's first big screen outing twenty five years after the series was canceled and that The Next Generation left the big screen less than ten years after it left the small screen. Picard and company just didn't leave the same mark as the original gang (even though their Neilsen ratings were better).By what metric was TOS "more successful" than TNG?
^ You expose your bias when you expect TOS to be referred to as Star Trek but not TNG as Star Trek: The Next Generation.
TMP came out in '79 and TUC in '91 - 12 years. It also wouldn't have made it to the big screen at all if not for Paramount using a lesser-known property to try and copy the success 20th Century Fox's Star Wars, and would have likely died out with the Star Trek: Phase II telemovie or the forgotten Star Trek: The Animated Series. You wanna fool around with numbers we can also say that TNG got 178 televised hours while TOS got 99 hours less, and TNG went out at peak success - it could have gone on for seasons more. TNG kept TOS alive in the public eye, and its success spawned following series - series that when looking for a successful model to copy, tried to model themselves after TNG. And lasted for hundreds of hours, hundreds of books, and for over a decade after TNG left the small screen. And who's proven success was the studio's impetus for revisiting TOS. Which I love, thanks.
The fact that Star Trek played a major part in The Next Generation's first big screen outing twenty five years after the series was canceled and that The Next Generation left the big screen less than ten years after it left the small screen. Picard and company just didn't leave the same mark as the original gang (even though their Neilsen ratings were better).By what metric was TOS "more successful" than TNG?
^ You expose your bias when you expect TOS to be referred to as Star Trek but not TNG as Star Trek: The Next Generation.
TMP came out in '79 and TUC in '91 - 12 years. It also wouldn't have made it to the big screen at all if not for Paramount using a lesser-known property to try and copy the success 20th Century Fox's Star Wars, and would have likely died out with the Star Trek: Phase II telemovie or the forgotten Star Trek: The Animated Series. You wanna fool around with numbers we can also say that TNG got 178 televised hours while TOS got 99 hours less, and TNG went out at peak success - it could have gone on for seasons more. TNG kept TOS alive in the public eye, and its success spawned following series - series that when looking for a successful model to copy, tried to model themselves after TNG. And lasted for hundreds of hours, hundreds of books, and for over a decade after TNG left the small screen. And who's proven success was the studio's impetus for revisiting TOS. Which I love, thanks.
Or I could have simply been trying to keep the post as short as possible. I take it since we're on the TrekBBS most posters would know what I was referring to when I called it The Next Generation.
As a matter of fact, I have so much bias against Modern Trek that I only own all four seasons of Enterprise, four seasons of The Next Generation, four seasons of Deep Space Nine and three seasons of Voyager.
john titor
Captain
TNG espoused a sophisticated social political critique which is lost on most defenders of neoliberalism, elites and masses alike. Its ahead of its time and it remains the greatest of all television shows, ever produced. All you need to do is watch the final scenes in AGT between Picard and Q, a level of intellectual clarity and insight which remains unparalled in tv and which sends out a powerful message to humanity, whether they choose to accept it or not is a different story but one day, perhaps we will become advanced enough to appreciate the logic in it in conjunction with the advanced progressive nature of TNGs thematic subtexts.
Hear hear!
TNG was an amazingly intellectual show, ahead of its time and unmatched by most TV shows.
Also, I love TOS and TNG both, but keep in mind that it was the huge success of TNG that kept Star Trek alive throughout the late 80's, 90's, and into the 21st century and facilitated the vast library of trek that we now have today. That being said, I think if TNG, VOY, DS9, and ENT were never made, they still would have re-booted the TOS cast for a new movie. Its a great marketing idea no matter how you look at it. It also could have been a huge failure if it was handled incorrectly.
I think trading off the iconic status of 40 year old characters is like shooting fish in a barrel. So even positioning a badly handled, flashy FX driven extravaganza in the Summer popcorn season, with the current climate and the likes of Transformers 2, could hardly fail to deliver results. Try elevating a lesser known Star Trek to that level, or creating all-new characters from scratch and getting that level of box office attention... Make cinema-goers care about people they have absolutely no preconceived notions about. Now that would be great storytelling.
As far as The Next Generation is concerned, it's a mix of thought-proking science fiction and space opera... as such now completely out of fashion sadly.
As far as The Next Generation is concerned, it's a mix of thought-proking science fiction and space opera... as such now completely out of fashion sadly.
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Brevity is the entire point of the non-italicized initializations used throughout the bulletin boards. Most of the time in webspeak, when one chooses to call TOS "Star Trek" and types it out as such instead of using the initials "ST", then types out "The Next Generation", then italicizes it, but makes sure not to include "Star Trek" at the start of it, it's a statement. I take you at your word it was brevity here.
Well if you only own four seasons of TNG, I don't think I need to say anything at all.
But seriously for a minute, I jumped the gun. Sector 7 got my ire up but before I calmly addressed his points, I spewed at you. I apologize.
The new movie was fun but i still love TNG and the TNG characters way more than TOS.
TNG was the Star Trek we grew up on.
TNG was the Star Trek we grew up on.
Gee, I feel like the odd man out here. I loved TOS when I found it in re-runs after school in '72 and still do. I was very happy to hear that ST had something new coming so I started watching TNG the first night that 'Farpoint' aired and continued all the way through to AGT. The combined 10 seasons of TOS and TNG motivated me to watch all of DS9, VOY, and ENT. I like them all in various degrees, but for me those first 10 seasons are by far the best.
TNG had more hard science, or at least, attempts at it, than TOS.
TOS was a fun adventure, which occasionally made you think. TNG tried to make you think a lot, but it sometimes forgot the 'fun' part of the equation.
TOS was a fun adventure, which occasionally made you think. TNG tried to make you think a lot, but it sometimes forgot the 'fun' part of the equation.
L
Lord Garth
Guest
I don't know if technobabble or biotechnobabble counts as hard science but...
TNG did better on television and TOS does better in movies. One doesn't necessarily fit the other and that's all there is to it. For some reason, TPTB either weren't able to translate TNG to the big screen or they flat-out just wouldn't.
TNG managed to last twice is long on television and three more series came as a result of it but that's where TNG worked best.
Right now, it doesn't seem like there's anywhere for Star Trek to fit on television but movies are a different story. So we're getting the Star Trek that fits the current situation.
TNG did better on television and TOS does better in movies. One doesn't necessarily fit the other and that's all there is to it. For some reason, TPTB either weren't able to translate TNG to the big screen or they flat-out just wouldn't.
TNG managed to last twice is long on television and three more series came as a result of it but that's where TNG worked best.
Right now, it doesn't seem like there's anywhere for Star Trek to fit on television but movies are a different story. So we're getting the Star Trek that fits the current situation.
I hadn't considered that before but I think you're dead-on.
That depends on your age, of course. I grew up on TOS, and was pushing thirty by the time TNG came along!
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