Can We Talk About Solok?

[Markonian]

Your arguments make sense. I need to mull over that a bit more.

I’m coming more from a gamer perspective. Taking a baseline Human, Tellarite or Ferengi over a Liberated Borg, Vulcan or Caitian does not affect the storyline in STO, but can leave you bereft of an edge the other species give you in ground combat. Due to their inherent strengths (nanoprobe assault/nerve pinch/pounce and high jump) they are superior races.

Moral superiority does not follow from physical superiority, hence the mission’s outcome in STO depends on character choices, not the amount of ass-kicking a character can do.

 

[Mage]

I find in interesting that DS9 portraital of Vulcans was rather different really. We had three big Vulcan characters on the show, one was part of the Maquis, one was a serial killer, one was an arrogant bastard who showed some racial hatred.

 

[Hahawaitwhat]

Your arguments make sense. I need to mull over that a bit more.

I’m coming more from a gamer perspective. Taking a baseline Human, Tellarite or Ferengi over a Liberated Borg, Vulcan or Caitian does not affect the storyline in STO, but can leave you bereft of an edge the other species give you in ground combat. Due to their inherent strengths (nanoprobe assault/nerve pinch/pounce and high jump) they are superior races.

Moral superiority does not follow from physical superiority, hence the mission’s outcome in STO depends on character choices, not the amount of ass-kicking a character can do.

Interesting, I never thought of it from a STO perspective. I've actually never played even though I've heard good things about it. After reading your post I finally took the plunge and got it on Steam. I have this bad feeling that it might be one of those life-stealers of a game. Oh, well!

 

[at Quark's]

Probably poor Solok had a traumatic experience in early childhood, causing uneven development, making him such a jerk in adult life. Something like getting bullied at kindergarten because his pleenok wasn't in the style of the latest fashion (though of course Vulcans would call it 'obsolete design') or some such thing ….

 

[Peach Wookiee]

One of the things I adore about DS9 is that it shows that everyone can be flawed, even members of a supposedly logical race.

 

[Brass]

Makes you think, his attitude towards humans is almost like the typical Romulan! I do love this episode, I want one of the baseball caps really badly.

 

[kkt]

Makes you think, his attitude towards humans is almost like the typical Romulan! I do love this episode, I want one of the baseball caps really badly.

The Logicians baseball caps, or Niners?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

The problem with the superior race idea, even beyond the ethical dangers, is that the word 'superior' is completely subjective. It's dependent not only on philosophical differences but also on changing circumstances.

You can say 'better eyesight' is a superior trait, but for a species that lives in a world constantly bombarded by blinding lights your statement would be nonsense. There are many possible circumstances in which having 'better x' may actually be an inferior trait, not a superior one. And in a universe where characters travel all over the galaxy, there is every reason to believe that traits may be both superior and inferior depending on where a person happens to be at a given time.

That's without even mentioning the fact that most beings are typically going to be a mix of traits which cannot truly be described as superior across the board in the first place. A species may be extraordinarily strong, but slow or unwieldy. Extraordinarily fast, yet requiring an extreme amount of sustenance, etc.

 

[Brass]

The Logicians baseball caps, or Niners?

Niners of course!

 

[Tim Thomason]

Don't forget that the game was in the latter part of the Dominion War. Vulcans are supposed to be pacifists (Surak certainly was), and here is Solok leading a Vulcan ship in the bloodiest war in Federation history. How many crewmates did Solok lose? How many battles did he fight? Is there blood on his hands?

We see another Vulcan snap because the war took its toll, and they don't have adequate means of counseling and working through their emotions. Solok, as Captain, would be under a similar or perhaps even greater amount of stress during the war.

So he let's out a little steam and concocts this baseball game. Better than murdering a bunch of smilers.

 

[UnknownSample]

Vulcans aren't pacifists. They just try unusually hard to avoid violence. Joining Starfleet means accepting a certain amount of violence.

Solok didn't care about winning a baseball game per se. He knew the challenge would drive Sisko nuts and that he would have to take up the challenge, all human behavior he enjoyed looking down on. Solok took it as given that the Vulcans would win, and looked forward to seeing Sisko's reaction to that. Manipulation for personal entertainment? He wasn't really competing to prove "superiority" through baseball, of all things. He probably wanted to publish another behavioral psychology paper...

Reoddenberry was definitely presenting Vulcans as much more advanced people. Enlightened Earth people accepted this, and didn't resent it. The point of Vulcans in TOS were to show a possible alternative to how human beings are, a way out of our problems, as a race, even if not ideal. Spock commented on humanity's drawbacks from the sidelines, challenging the viewer to question where we're going.

More advanced doesn't mean better, that's also included, and part of how Vulcans were more advanced is that they knew this. Berman Trek never "got" Vulcans.

Another thing, Vulcans can't possibly be uniformly cool, enlightened, and well adjusted. Don't expect good logic from all of them. It would be interesting to explore variations among Vulcans, such as: What happens to a person with flawed logic or unrepressed emotion in Vulcan society? There would be great pressure to hide it, to appear to measure up to their high standards. They'd put on the stone face, tell themselves that's their real selves, and dark impulses would work their way to the surface in strange unexpected ways, in that very different society.

 

[at Quark's]

Vulcans aren't pacifists. They just try unusually hard to avoid violence. Joining Starfleet means accepting a certain amount of violence.

In combination with your avatar, that makes me think about that inspirational speech just before the battle of Bosworth field: "Now I'm afraid that there's going to have to be a certain amount of ...... violence. But at least we know it's all in a good cause, don't we?"

 

[kkt]

In combination with your avatar, that makes me think about that inspirational speech just before the battle of Bosworth field: "Now I'm afraid that there's going to have to be a certain amount of ...... violence. But at least we know it's all in a good cause, don't we?"

 

[Leathco]

Neither humans nor Vulcans are "superior" to each other, they just have some traits that are superior. We have seen Vulcans have advantages in telepathy, strength, and sciences. Humans have the advantage with intuition, outside the box thinking, as well as letting our emotions run loose without the need to reign them in constantly.

This is why we see multiple species on a ship. A solid captain and his officers can take those benefits of those different species and make them work to their benefit while at the same time minimizing the effect their weaknesses have. Note that we don't hear anything about T'Kumbra outside this episode. A ship fully staffed with Vulcans likely has an extremely strong raw sciences section, and perhaps is a good combat ship due to Vulcans being strong in that field, but also has glaring weaknesses that the omission of other races precludes.

 

[at Quark's]

This is why we see multiple species on a ship. A solid captain and his officers can take those benefits of those different species and make them work to their benefit while at the same time minimizing the effect their weaknesses have. Note that we don't hear anything about T'Kumbra outside this episode. A ship fully staffed with Vulcans likely has an extremely strong raw sciences section, and perhaps is a good combat ship due to Vulcans being strong in that field, but also has glaring weaknesses that the omission of other races precludes.

Just watched a couple of S5 and S6 eps and I really loved how Nog is being used there. Being an ensign, he still is a Ferengi as well, and he has all kinds of small trades going on. I'm sure that what he does is against regulations, but I'm also sure that it is according to the very spirit of the Federation: species cooperating together, each doing what it does best to contribute to the common good, even if in his case for now it is only getting his hands on a few bottles of (illegal) Romulan ale for his fellow officers. I'm confident that later on, as a Captain he will put those talents to good use in procuring stuff that is of vital importance, even if it is not always entirely according to the rules. There is a place for (the talents of) every species in the Federation.

 

[Timo]

...All the better, then, to acknowledge, accept and embrace the differences. Which is sort of the antithesis of insisting that nobody can be superior.

Surak was a pacifist? I saw him as a shrewd tactician. Don't fight the wrong enemy. Don't use the wrong weapons. Make sure to hit your real enemy where it hurts.

- Surak's first piece of advice is to make a military alliance with the combatants available.
- His next is to avoid wholly unnecessary casualties through abandoning a nonviable tactic.
- And then he says he will personally stand out of the bows-and-arrows fight because he is no good at it, and dedicate his time to that type of warfare where he excels in, that is, negotiating.
- He sums up by suggesting a reevaluation of victory conditions in face of the obvious.

And then he goes to negotiate, and it turns out Green has the same priorities and philosophies: saving one's skin (or skins in general) comes before everything else, and fighting as a thing is but a means to be discarded if something better pops up.

Certainly pacifism never surfaces as a Surakist trait anywhere else. Spock is a warmonger, his father a stone-cold killer, Tuvok blasts alien scum to bits for a living. As do many top Starfleeters, Captains and Admirals.

Surakian logic also seems to dictate the application of the most destructive firepower in the most ruthless manner possible if that cuts down on the total loss of life, as per the Vulcan Hello. Rather regardless of what Surak himself might have thought or said, those millennia ago.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[UnknownSample]

...All the better, then, to acknowledge, accept and embrace the differences. Which is sort of the antithesis of insisting that nobody can be superior.

Surak was a pacifist? I saw him as a shrewd tactician. Don't fight the wrong enemy. Don't use the wrong weapons. Make sure to hit your real enemy where it hurts.

- Surak's first piece of advice is to make a military alliance with the combatants available.
- His next is to avoid wholly unnecessary casualties through abandoning a nonviable tactic.
- And then he says he will personally stand out of the bows-and-arrows fight because he is no good at it, and dedicate his time to that type of warfare where he excels in, that is, negotiating.
- He sums up by suggesting a reevaluation of victory conditions in face of the obvious.

And then he goes to negotiate, and it turns out Green has the same priorities and philosophies: saving one's skin (or skins in general) comes before everything else, and fighting as a thing is but a means to be discarded if something better pops up.

Certainly pacifism never surfaces as a Surakist trait anywhere else. Spock is a warmonger, his father a stone-cold killer, Tuvok blasts alien scum to bits for a living. As do many top Starfleeters, Captains and Admirals.

Surakian logic also seems to dictate the application of the most destructive firepower in the most ruthless manner possible if that cuts down on the total loss of life, as per the Vulcan Hello. Rather regardless of what Surak himself might have thought or said, those millennia ago.

Timo Saloniemi

You have a tendency to express ideas in military terms, as Kirk approximately said to Khan... So everyone is just trying to win battles in the best way they know how. Well, Vulcans aren't pacifists, not in the absolute sense, but they certainly lean in that direction. Surak acted like one, risking his life and losing it, going unarmed to negotiate when it would have been very unlikely he'd be heard. A pretty bad battle tactic...
----------------------
Early on in TOS, there would be this moment of uncertainty sometimes about whether Spock would join in on use of force. There would be a short exchange between Kirk and Spock, where Spock would need to assure Kirk that if violence is needed, he'll take part. Meaning, part of his outlook is non violence, which he's had to compromise by joining Star Fleet.
------------------------------
Now, the Federation in general tries to avoid violence pretty hard... but it seems Vulcans more than the other members.

 

[Terok Nor]

You know, I heard that Solok is quite a man...

 

[johnnybear]

At least humans can drink Vulcans under the table!
JB

 

[lurok]

After ENT, Solok just fits into a long line of Vulcan dickheads