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Can we all agree that 31 had a huge roll in winning the war

The Jem'Hadar may be quite capable of fighting efficiently in berserker mode

No, not really. An insane Jem'Hadar will kill anything and everything it encounters in a frenzy of mindless slaughter. Up to, and including, fellow Jem'Hadar. That is, by definition, inefficient.

Normally, Jem'Hadar are actually pretty smart. They don't kill absolutely everything, just the enemy. 'Berserker' is not their M.O.
 
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The prophets had a bigger role winning the war. And Section 31 should have been the one to come up with that data rod thingy.
 
The Jem'Hadar may be quite capable of fighting efficiently in berserker mode, without leadership or discipline, even at the level of divisions and armies
[...]
Timo Saloniemi

No, the jem'hadar can't.
To be more exact, if they were depicted as fighting effectively without rationality and discipline, this would have been a HUGE deus ex machina.

Wolverine fights in a Berserker mode and is quiet deadly, why not the Jem'Hadar. They may become more suicidal in their fights against Federation, Klingon and Romulan ships and colonies, and that could make them very deadly. Like the Japanese at the end of WWII, but with state of the art ships; until the last one dies.
 
The Jem'Hadar may be quite capable of fighting efficiently in berserker mode, without leadership or discipline, even at the level of divisions and armies
[...]
Timo Saloniemi

No, the jem'hadar can't.
To be more exact, if they were depicted as fighting effectively without rationality and discipline, this would have been a HUGE deus ex machina.

Wolverine fights in a Berserker mode and is quiet deadly, why not the Jem'Hadar. They may become more suicidal in their fights against Federation, Klingon and Romulan ships and colonies, and that could make them very deadly. Like the Japanese at the end of WWII, but with state of the art ships; until the last one dies.

Wolverine is a character in a superhero comic (AKA he'll always win in the end - hence his deus ex machina ability to singlehandedly defeat/kill dozens of opponents) who is shown to have quite a keen tactical mind. Running one's mouth is NOT being a mindless berserker.

That's not to say there are not instances in fiction when rage attacks were shown to be unstoppable when fighting an equal, but rational enemy, etc - but you won't find any in real-life history, Vanyel.

As for the japanese - in order to be effective, the kamikaze tactic required a LOT of rationality and discipline to plan and execute the attacks.
 
I think Section 31 went with the infecting Odo bit because they thought it was more fun to go that route, since covert, black op organizations that don't even answer to their own governments and laws tend to enjoy doing stuff like that.
 
The prophets had a bigger role winning the war. And Section 31 should have been the one to come up with that data rod thingy.

Well yes the Prophets were more important.

Prophets Don't Help and Federation Loses Badly. Section 31 does not help and Federation still wins. Only difference is Cardassians make it out better.
 
Well think of it like this:

Recall "Statistical Improbabilities". The Jack Pack--and Julian Bashir--predicted the Romulans joining the war. They accounted for "something unexpected...such as an anti-Dominion coup on Cardassia". And in their predictions...the Dominion won.

Julian noted, however, that something unusual may happen that they wouldn't have anticipated.

So...what didn't we hear them anticipate that affected the course of the war, that happened? Well...two things come to mind:

1) The Breen Alliance (which...helped the Dominion)

2) The virus, weakening the Founders and crippling their mental faculties.
 
Game theory shows that in any complex activity, reason beats mindless anger anytime - given equal starting positions.
Game theory appears to be the least useful of Man's inventions so far, as it doesn't have a single field of application that could be put in a CV without serious blushing and coughing.

Game theory is used for economic prediction, which never works. Game theory is used for conflict outcome or conflict evolution prediction, with results so consistently useless that this already could be used as an element of prediction. Game theory is used for predicting business deals, but fails, because psychology always overrules it.

Game theory only works for games that play themselves, or for processes where thinking is not involved at all but the number of repetitions is so immense that the involved statistical phenomena have the chance of working. Insert reason, or what counts for one in human thinking, and the theory evidently collapses.

Which, funnily enough, would appear to support the berserker approach to combat on a meta level...

...And never mind that the approach has been victorious in reality often enough. In the simplest possible terms, throwing the game is often a winning move (especially if the board is heavy and has sharp edges).

what didn't we hear them anticipate that affected the course of the war, that happened?
We never did hear them discuss the role of the Prophets. Granted, they had already played their seemingly most important card by closing down all traffic a few episodes earlier, but it sounds like one line of thought they would plausibly overlook - and one where Sisko could put his faith, being already rather comfortable with divine intervention.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Game theory shows that in any complex activity, reason beats mindless anger anytime - given equal starting positions.
Game theory appears to be the least useful of Man's inventions so far [...]Game theory is used for economic prediction[...]prediction[...]

Really, Timo?
Game theory offers the best strategy for a given situation. It's not meant to predict anything, but to offer the strategy with the best chances for success.
And this it does.

About the subject at hand, history showed that for an army to be even halfway effective, it needs rationality and discipline - as per the strategy recommended by game theory.

And where did you get this - "Game theory only works for games that play themselves, or for processes where thinking is not involved at all but the number of repetitions is so immense that the involved statistical phenomena have the chance of working".
Let's see some arguments/evidence backing this up, Timo.
 
Game theory offers the best strategy for a given situation. It's not meant to predict anything, but to offer the strategy with the best chances for success.
And this it does.
And that's where it fails to have any practical application - as nobody wants the best strategy, which only works on the infinitely short term and generally ruins your future. Clearly, human strategies in the real world are not based on game theory, and it desperately struggles to retroactively explain the strategies chosen by nature as well (although there it meets with more success as the element of reason is removed).

A theory without any predictive value is just masturbation.

And where did you get this
Just look out of the window, man. Humans refuse to play the optimal game. And it's quite impossible to find a successful case of the theory being applied - the practical merits of the theory need to be demonstrated before there can be any call for counterexamples.

Timo Saloniemi
 
So, Timo, you have little idea what game theory is or its applications, but because it refutes your argument you come with empty rhetoric such as 'Just look out of the window, man' in a, frankly, childish attempt to be contrary - you don't actually think your rhetoric has any credibility, yes?

You may want to read up somewhat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory
 
Well think of it like this:

Recall "Statistical Improbabilities". The Jack Pack--and Julian Bashir--predicted the Romulans joining the war. They accounted for "something unexpected...such as an anti-Dominion coup on Cardassia". And in their predictions...the Dominion won.

Julian noted, however, that something unusual may happen that they wouldn't have anticipated.

So...what didn't we hear them anticipate that affected the course of the war, that happened? Well...two things come to mind:

1) The Breen Alliance (which...helped the Dominion)

2) The virus, weakening the Founders and crippling their mental faculties.

Or 3) Prophets decided to wipeout an entire Dominion Fleet at the Behest of The Sisko.
 
So, Timo, you have little idea what game theory is or its applications, but because it refutes your argument you come with empty rhetoric such as 'Just look out of the window, man' in a, frankly, childish attempt to be contrary - you don't actually think your rhetoric has any credibility, yes?
To the contrary, it appears you have no understanding of game theory.

Suffice to present one infamous example of the grand theory at work. Say, you can have a hundred bucks right now. The catch is, you have to share it with user Edit ABC; you decide the split. If Edit ABC turns down your offer, neither of you gets the money.

Game theory to the rescue: you offer him a 99/1 split, with 99 bucks for ya. That's the optimal and logical split, as he would be left with nothing if he turned it down. In fact, you'd offer him just one cent, but unfortunately the rules dictate one-dollar increments for simplicity. You are mightily surprised that he turns you down.

But hey, you are told the offer is good for a hundred times. You can try again 99 times. Browsing through the equations, you again offer a 99/1 split. Again it is turned down, to your amazement, even though he could accumulate 99 bucks by accepting all your offers - against your approximate ten grand.

No worries, an outside expert comes to aid and tells you to change paradigms, something the game theory doesn't cater for by itself. You are told to treat the remaining 98 tries as a bidding contest. As per the equations, you raise by an increment of one dollar (since you can't raise by one cent). To your continuing amazement, not only does Edit ABC refuse the offer, he actually walks away, muttering "I have better things to do".

Now, a human uncorrupted by game theory might offer a 70/30 at first, and win. But he would still probably offer 50/50, knowing against all theory that this bid will be accepted with 100% certainty. Or, if he were told from the start that there are 100 tries, he would definitely offer 50/50 at first, knowing that he needs to hook the opponent in order to secure future profits. Hey, even after your disastrous start with the 99/1 bid, a human unhindered by the silly theory could take over and offer 60/40, knowing that this goodwill gesture would result in haggling that would allow at least the remaining ninety or so bids to go profitably.

At the end of the day, then, you would walk away with the game theory manual, but an actual human being would walk away with 5,000 bucks at the very least - and could phone home to the missus after the first two bids already, promising her a new fur coat, because he has predictive powers far in excess of those offered by the game theory.

It's all about taking into account the future. Which is why game theory works splendidly in describing natural evolution, as evolution never takes into account the future. Too bad that game theory can't predict even natural evolution; it's in practice a descriptive tool only - which of course is good for a sales pitch by a consultant, as he can point out that the past twenty years of economy, strategy, terrier breeding or whatever feature plenty of perfect matches to the game theory equations. It's just that the theory cannot predict which of the economy decisions of the future will be matches, and which will go against the equations.

For the obligatory on-topic bit, there's thankfully no evidence that the Jack Pack relied on anything as absurd as the game theory in predicting UFP downfall.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Again, since we don't know whether the Jack Pack discussed the possibility of the Breen alliance, we can't really go on anything coming from said alliance.
 
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