Can shuttlecrafts go to warp?

[Timo]

Amusingly, even "Encounter at Farpoint" does not show us a separation at high warp.

Yes, that's what the dialogue suggests is going on. But the actual VFX has the warp streaks cease streaking and the sky again filled with "sublight" stardots when the separation and subsequent stardrive section U-turn takes place. Perhaps Picard heeded Data's advice about the, well, inadvisability of warp separation and instead ordered the brakes slammed just before separation after all?

The saucer would then need independent warp acceleration capacity. But it needs that in "Arsenal of Freedom" anyway, and there's no real reason not to give it some - warp engines aren't a resource Starfleet could not afford to install aboard the saucer. Which, FWIW, has distinct blue "warp glow" on its upper aft surfaces...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Unicron]

There are quite a few issues with the "warp sustainer" idea. Most probes are launched at crawling speed, and are sometimes seen igniting a rocket flame after essentially swimming out of the bow tube of the E-D. They travel across interstellar distances anyway - say, in "Inner Light".

Similarly, the E-D saucer is "launched", that is, separated at near-standstill in "Arsenal of Freedom", and is then expected to find its way to a starbase across interstellar distances.

So it seems rather more likely that both the average probe and the Galaxy class saucer have their own fully independent warp drives that allow them to go to warp from a sublight start.

Timo Saloniemi

Jackill had a bit of fun with this in some of his works, as the more advanced probes definitely have their own warp capability (something which is an essential element in TNG's "The Emissary" I rewatched the other day), and there are warp transport units for the tug container modules in cases where speed is essential but it wouldn't be ideal to divert a full transport/tug to do so. There's also a single drydock model with a limited warp drive system and nacelle which allows it to relocate to another shipyard as needed, and FASA toyed with a similar idea for a mobile drydock that could help repair ships in the field or in wartime.

 

[Timo]

I wonder about the specifics of "The Emissary". DS9 has torpedo launchers. If SB 153 had those, did they fire K'Ehleyr towards the heroes, and if so, with or without initial warp speed? Or was she fired from a starship that herself for some reason could not be sent to meet with the E-D, but perhaps provide an initial warp boost not just from the launcher, but from the ship being a warp as well? If neither, what SB 153 asset would have featured probes shaped like torpedoes?

We know that torp-shaped probes can be fired by the Amargosa observatory. Did that one feature a bona fide torpedo launcher, that is, a weapon? Or just a chute that could not deliver antimatter-warhead projectiles? Did Soran's torp-shaped probe fly to the star at warp speed just like his rocket-shaped probe to that other star, or did the torp take half an hour or whatever to cross the distance?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

Amusingly, even "Encounter at Farpoint" does not show us a separation at high warp.

Yes, that's what the dialogue suggests is going on. But the actual VFX has the warp streaks cease streaking and the sky again filled with "sublight" stardots when the separation and subsequent stardrive section U-turn takes place. Perhaps Picard heeded Data's advice about the, well, inadvisability of warp separation and instead ordered the brakes slammed just before separation after all?

Whatever was happening afterwards with that dashing U-turn from the stardrive section I don't know, but during the separation itself there were numerous conspicuous streaks
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x01/farpoint_hd_194.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x01/farpoint_hd_195.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x01/farpoint_hd_196.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x01/farpoint_hd_206.jpg
They show up better in HD, but I remember seeing them even back on my VHS

 

[Christopher]

Oh, yes, definitely. They were clearly at high warp. That was not only quite visible from the VFX, it was undeniable from the situation. They were being chased at high warp and had no hope of escape. Picard left the saucer behind and then surrendered, giving the saucer and the majority of the ship's complement the chance to escape. It would've been impossible to drop to impulse before separating the saucer, because the pursuer would've caught up virtually instantly, before they could separate. It would've defeated the whole purpose.

David Gerrold's novelization also makes it clear that the separation happens at warp -- he describes the crew in the battle section seeing the saucer section disappear from view as soon as it passes out of the warp envelope (because it's suddenly traveling much slower than the battle section and is instantly left far behind).

I recall that I was always aware that the two uses we saw of the separation sequence, in "Farpoint" and "The Arsenal of Freedom," were composited over different backgrounds, warp stars in the former case and a stationary starscape in the latter.

 

[Timo]

The "catching up virtually instantly" part never happens in warp chases, though. What appears to be close pursuit always seems to involve "safe" separation where the chasing party has time to ponder whether and how to respond to the quarry suddenly decelerating.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crusher Disciple]

I would assume they can. At least the TNG era ones. They used them to take shore leave, and Geordi tried to take one to Risa before the Romulans kidnapped him.

 

[Timo]

...Although that's a good example of why we could argue they can't - LaForge's shuttle is shown moving at impulse only, there being no starstreaks outside the window, and we hear (even though this is a Romulan lie) how his return trip involved parking the shuttlepod aboard a warp-capable ship that took care of the interstellar part of his trip.

That's how shuttles in most cases might be used: a warp-capable ship drops them off at the edge of a star system and goes her merry way to perform an important mission, leaving the shuttle to putter the rest of the way into the system at sublight. Why? Well, we have many examples of warp being slow as molasses close to stars. Say, a couple of movies and many episodes blatantly show us how high warp amounts to crawling speed. In ST4:The Voyage Home, first warp ten and then warp eight barely gets our heroes moving around the Sun. And then sends them back in time, which may be two sides of the same coin... In any case, if warp is slow in star systems, one could just as well go to impulse, like our heroes often do. But better let only the away team do that, in their shuttle, rather than tie down the mighty starship for hours upon hours of tedious impulse travel first in and then out!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[publiusr]

I kinda wish crazy eddies space warp thread was not closed—there is a recent phys.org paper which—though it lowers its use as FTL...allows for something like a battery and stasis field

 

[Oddish]

It's explicitly stated that shuttles are warp capable in Voyager's "Resolutions". Tom says that "a type 9 shuttlecraft has a top speed of warp 4", and even gets the travel time right (700 years).

 

[Timo]

Yeah, that's the show that finally goes explicit. We never see a shuttle at warp in TNG or DS9. That is, we never see warp streaks, and we never see a shuttle interior scene where something about the dialogue or the plot would force us to conclude that the craft was at warp. The first shuttle seen doing warp streaks would be from VGR, although I'm not quite sure if it is as late as "Threshold". (Interestingly, a few episodes earlier in "Maneuvers", a stolen shuttle is indicated to be moving at impulse, and we never learn of an excuse for why she doesn't go to warp.)

In terms of in-universe chronology, the first Starfleet shuttle that does warp streaks is from DSC "Context Is For Kings".

And in terms of inference rather than explicit stuff, and in terms of production chronology, several TOS shuttles clearly need to travel at warp in order for the plot to make sense: "Metamorphosis" comes the closest to being explicit, with the heroes commenting that a phenomenon is "heading directly towards us at warp speed" and then "staying right with us"; such commentary would make no sense were the shuttle not also at warp. "The Galileo Seven" gets silver for having a shuttle be lost, with four separate star systems to choose from when Kirk launches a search without knowing whether the shuttle has gone off course on her own or (as it turns out) been whisked across a distance by a phenomenon. And then there's "The Menagerie".

But TOS never ever goes explicit, and of course never ever does streaks...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

If "streaks" are the criteria to indicate warp speed, then the TOS Enterprise is still trying to get out of our solar system.

The situation in The Galileo Seven got me thinking about the interaction of natural space phenomena on ships at warp. The electromagnetic phenomenon known as Murasaki 312 was a quasar-like formation which interacted with the accelerating shuttlecraft to propel the shuttlecraft to incredible speed.

BOMA: I can't be sure, but I'd say that, the magnetic potential of the effect was (McCoy gives him a tissue for his nose bleed) Thank you. Was such that, as we gathered speed, it was multiplied geometrically. And we were simply shot into the centre of the effect. Like a projectile.
SPOCK: I'd say your evaluation is reasonable, Mister Boma.

Could this interaction-phenomenon also explain the vast distance travelled by the S.S. Valiant in Where No Man Has Gone Before?

SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction.
KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough.
SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here.

Apparently, to escape the magnetic phenomenon, strong impulse engines are needed which implies, if we equate the two episodes, that a shuttlecraft's impulse engines are too weak to get out of the effect. Neither episode mention whether both ships were at warp or just under impulse engines prior to encountering the phenomena.

Several other episodes where Earth ships accidentally traveled vast distances may be explained by similar interactions. This could explain why the study of these phenomena are required by Starfleet in both The Galileo Seven and in Court Martial:

KIRK: No problem, Commissioner. And may I remind you that I have standing orders to investigate all quasars and quasar-like phenomena wherever they may be encountered.

KIRK: Weather scan indicated an ion storm dead ahead. I sent Finney into the pod.
STONE: Why Finney?
KIRK: His name was at the top of the duty roster.
STONE: If he blamed you
KIRK: He may have blamed me that he never rose to command a ship, but I don't assign jobs on the basis of who blames me. It was Finney's turn, and I assigned him. He had just checked in with me from the pod when we hit the leading edge of the storm. Not too bad at first. I signalled a Yellow Alert. Then we began encountering pressure, variant stress, force seven, the works. I finally signaled a Red Alert. Finney knew he had a matter of seconds. I gave him those seconds and more. But apparently it wasn't enough.

(On the courtroom viewscreen)
UHURA: Meteorology reports ion storm upcoming, Captain.
KIRK: We'll need somebody in the pod for readings.
SPOCK: Mister Finney is top of duty roster, Captain.
KIRK: Post him.
SPOCK: Attention, Commander Finney, report to pod for reading on ion plates.
FINNEY [OC]: Message Received.
SPOCK: Officer posted, Captain.
(The ship suddenly judders)
KIRK: Stand by on alert status, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Acknowledged.
HANSON: Approaching ion storm, sir.
KIRK: Warp factor one, Mister Hanson.
HANSON: Warp one, sir.
(There's another sharp jerk, and Kirk presses a button on his chair panel.)
UHURA: Call from the pod, sir.
KIRK: Tie in.
FINNEY [OC]: Finney here, Captain. Ion readings in progress.
KIRK: Make it fast, Ben. I may have to go to Red Alert.
FINNEY [OC]: Affirmative.
KIRK: Hold our course, Mister Hanson.
HANSON: Aye, aye, sir. Natural vibrations, force two, Captain. Force three.
KIRK: Engineering, then ion pod.
UHURA: Aye, aye, sir.
CREWMAN [OC]: Engineering.
KIRK: One third more thrust.
CREWMAN [OC]: Working.
FINNEY [OC]: Ion pod.
KIRK: Stand by to get out of there, Ben.
FINNEY [OC]: Aye, aye, sir.
HANSON: Force five, sir.
KIRK: Steady as she goes, Mister Hanson.

Note that the Enterprise uses its Warp Drive to maneuver within and escape the ion storm. This example could imply that both the shuttlecraft and the S.S. Valiant were not warp capable and only had impulse engines...(FLT impulse engines, though ). YMMV .

 

[Christopher]

Several other episodes where Earth ships accidentally traveled vast distances may be explained by similar interactions. This could explain why the study of these phenomena are required by Starfleet in both The Galileo Seven and in Court Martial:

I think you're overthinking this part. A "quasarlike phenomenon" within our galaxy would have to be a microquasar, i.e. an active black hole, which would give off intense radiation jets that could be a hazard to neighboring star systems. That alone would be good reason to monitor them closely. (I addressed this in my TOS novel The Captain's Oath, and also touched on the idea in my latest campaign for Star Trek Adventures, though that one's still a long way from publication.)

As for ion storms, the reasons why a ship would need to monitor hazardous weather are fairly self-evident, I would think, without any need for postulating freak phenomena.

 

[Timo]

Well, that's two different things: 1) ion storms, and 2) things with "magnetic" in their name that make ships go fast. They don't appear functionally related.

But "observing foul weather" is a stupid reason to have standing orders for starships to sail into said weather at risk of blowing up. Why not monitor from afar? Also, unlike the otherwise possibly analogous tornadoes today, said foul weather apparently only ever happens once in a blue moon, making it imperative to launch one of those suicidal studes whenever the opportunity presents itself (which it didn't on Kirk's ship for seven years straight!).

So ion storms are clearly interesting for some other reason altogether, and "freak phenomena" is a good category there. It's just that it's not known to be a freak phenomenon of a type that would affect starship speed, range or direction, unlike those magnetic whatnots.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

Kind of reminds me of hurricane sucking up an observation balloon in Richmond, Virginia during the American Civil War and sending it into the Pacific Ocean to crash on some mysterious island.

 

[Deks]

I wonder about the specifics of "The Emissary". DS9 has torpedo launchers. If SB 153 had those, did they fire K'Ehleyr towards the heroes, and if so, with or without initial warp speed? Or was she fired from a starship that herself for some reason could not be sent to meet with the E-D, but perhaps provide an initial warp boost not just from the launcher, but from the ship being a warp as well? If neither, what SB 153 asset would have featured probes shaped like torpedoes?

We know that torp-shaped probes can be fired by the Amargosa observatory. Did that one feature a bona fide torpedo launcher, that is, a weapon? Or just a chute that could not deliver antimatter-warhead projectiles? Did Soran's torp-shaped probe fly to the star at warp speed just like his rocket-shaped probe to that other star, or did the torp take half an hour or whatever to cross the distance?

Timo Saloniemi

Here's the dialogue from The Emissary:
"RIKER: Data, what ship is carrying the envoy?
DATA: Apparently there were no starships available on Starbase One Five Three. The envoy is aboard a class eight probe.
RIKER: A class eight probe is just over two metres long.
PICARD: Yes, that's true, Number One. But if the transmitters and the sensors were removed and life-support installed, there would be just enough room for one person.
RIKER: And it is designed to travel at warp nine.
DATA: By sending the probe to meet us rather than diverting the Enterprise, they are saving us six point one hours.
PICARD: Obviously Starfleet feels that time is of the essence.
RIKER: But still, to seal someone inside a class eight Probe and launch it off. It's a hell of a way to transport a Federation dignitary."

So, a class 8 probe is designed to travel at Warp 9.
A torpedo doesn't need life-support system, and it likely comes with its own transmitters and sensors (it would need them to receive instructions if course corrections are required), not to mention a Warp drive. Torpedoes would likely need to have the ability to travel great distances in a short amount of time...
If ships are moving at a speed of (at least) 75 000 km/s and close to the speed of light at maximum, they would have to be FTL capable to overcome sublight speeds of starships and to be effective when fighting at Warp.

Also, we know they can have tracking capabilities, but this is not always used (which seems odd)... or it is, and enemy ships simply have countermeasures which effectively confuse torpedo tracking (and why it seems the torpedoes don't always track their targets... but we've seen even in Voyager that Photon torpedoes aren't always fired in a straight line... the USS Prometheus fired (accidentally) on a Defiant class ship which was some distance away on a Z axis... and as such it had to use a curved trajectory to reach its target.

At any rate, it stands to reason the probe was launched from a starbase towards certain coordinates knowing the Enterprise-D would need to intercept it to effectively reach it and greet the ambassador on-board.
After all, the probe likely didn't have infinite range... but just enough to reach those coordinates... although, WHY didn't SF program it to reach a destination, drop out of Warp and then waited for the Enterprise-D to pick it up?

Could have been limited oxygen supply... especially if it was modified to support a single person, not designed outright with life-support in mind.
Shuttles wouldn't work as they didn't travel at high Warp speeds (if they were Warp capable to begin with).

 

[Christopher]

Shuttles wouldn't work as they didn't travel at high Warp speeds (if they were Warp capable to begin with).

Haven't we already settled this? TNG-era shuttlecraft were explicitly, unambiguously warp-capable, though with less speed and range than starships. The smaller shuttlepods supposedly were not, but later TNG episodes sometimes used the shuttlepod mockup to represent what were scripted as explicitly warp-capable shuttles.

 

[Deks]

Haven't we already settled this? TNG-era shuttlecraft were explicitly, unambiguously warp-capable, though with less speed and range than starships. The smaller shuttlepods supposedly were not, but later TNG episodes sometimes used the shuttlepod mockup to represent what were scripted as explicitly warp-capable shuttles.

I was under the impression that there were both impulse-only and Warp capable shuttles.
Early TNG didn't really showcase warp capable shuttles and their nacelles lacked Warp grills (a distinct visual giveaway for Warp capability - usually).
Its possible the Enterprise-D had both impulse-only and Warp capable shuttles at the start, and only in the later seasons exclusively transitioned to warp capable ones (some of the older designs might have been refitted with Warp capability).

But I guess we could argue shuttles were always Warp capable (at least ones from 23rd century and beyond).

My point around the shuttle argument was mainly to illustrate that the Class 8 probe was DESIGNED to go at Warp 9.
Class 4 shuttles (the ones from Voyager) were only capable of Warp 4 - therefore, TNG shuttles wouldn't have been suitable to transport the Klingon ambassador due to the urgency of the situation and why they opted for the Class 8 probe instead.

 

[Christopher]

I was under the impression that there were both impulse-only and Warp capable shuttles.

As I said, regular shuttles were warp-capable but shuttlepods were not.

It's quite simple: If an episode shows a shuttlecraft being used to get anywhere that isn't in the same star system it started from, then it is unambiguously a warp-capable shuttlecraft. And every series except Enterprise has shown that happening. The only real use for a non-warp shuttle would be surface-to-orbit or ship-to-station travel, and you've got transporters for that. When shuttles are used, as often as not, it's to give some characters a side journey to another star system. (Or else it's so they can be in a shuttle crash.)

 

[Timo]

Of course, it's not that clear-cut: in DS9, things called shuttlepods have warp engines ("Destiny") and can go from star to star ("The Search II"), while the big shuttles in TNG are initially quoted with impulse performance only, despite having the obvious warp nacelles with the obvious glowing warp grilles and doing warp just fine in some other episode.

One is almost tempted to argue that installing a warp drive is always an option for every spacecraft, but sometimes craft of a given design are given it, sometimes not, perhaps to cut on costs or weight or whatnot...

Indeed, in "The Sound of Her Voice", it seems a shuttle is capable of not having a warp core, instead of lacking a warp core: a type with obvious nacelles and a slight size advantage vis-á-vis otherwise similar-looking warp-capable shuttlepods penetrates an anomaly that kills spacecraft that have warp cores... Possibly a matter of just turning a few self-sealing stem bolts clockwise and pulling out a module?

Timo Saloniemi