I think it would be an interesting exercise for fans to occasionally compare things like Star Trek pilots to, I dunno, pilots for any other show on television besides Star Trek.
"Burnham’s choice...affects Starfleet, affects the Federation; it affects the entire universe..."
- Thread starter Mudd
- Start date
I think it would be an interesting exercise for fans to occasionally compare things like Star Trek pilots to, I dunno, pilots for any other show on television besides Star Trek.
I don't totally get why it take ST longer to get running smoothly. I suspect that it has to do with the additional challenges related to the need to create their own universe. (Yes, I know they share the same timeline but each show is fairly distinct.) However, I'd agree that the delay is regrettable.
It's important to note that for Discovery we've had only two episodes. Maybe they'll start getting on track in episode three? We just don't know at this point. It's foolish to write the series off so early. I can tell you that I liked Discovery's first two hours much better than TNG's first two hours.
Regardless, TNG's Encounter at Farpoint was a festering pile of shit, but the series developed quite nicely after several seasons.
You certainly gave TNG a chance over that extended timeframe and you liked it quite a bit. I remember very clearly how you were the uber fan/apologist for the show right here on this BBS. Nothing wrong with that, but it's interesting how you've swung like a pendulum all the way to the other side. I can certainly respect changing your opinion over time, but it's an interesting phenomenon to observe.
^^^
Hey, by your comments, Starfleet should have been able to detect his insanity and not put him back in command of a Starship.
The planet had already counterbalanced. Ron Tracy thought he had discovered a way to make mankind immortal - and wanted to profit from it.
Spock never 'knocked anyone oput through a wall. In TOS - "A Taste of Armageddon" he was able to project a thought into the guard's mind to open the cell. Kirk then knocked the guard out.
Then in: TOS - "The Omega Glory" - he projected a thought into a female Yang's mind to open a Commuinicator.
In TOS - "By Any Other Name" - Spock attempted the same thing he had for the Guard in "A Taste of Armageddon" but the Kelvin resisted and Spock was injured by the attempt.
Any time Vulcans have joined minds to be able to experience another's thoughts, it's been by touch.
Here's the thing: Burnham WASN'T right. Neither was Georgiou - there WAS NO RIGHT CHOICE HERE. This was a no win situation.
T'Kuvma was going to have his war to unify the Klingon empire no matter what anyone on the Federation side did. That also became crystal clear to Georgiou once T'Kuvma agreed to a parley; and then had a ship ram the Admiral's ship. The Admiral in turn initiated an anti-matter explosion once he realized his ship was going to be destroyed.
The character story here is:
- Burnham believed at the time she was committing the mutiny that IT WAS the only way to save anyone (again she was 100% wrong but had no way of knowing that at the time.)
-Burnham also now belives that in killing T'Kuvma in the heat of the moment; she's made hoim a martyr meaning the Klingons will fight harder in his name; more beings on both sides will die, and the war will be much harder for the Federation to end. (That's why she says "...I'm the enemy...)
They didn't put him back in command of a starship, they stuck him in the Asylum.
And you know that how? Because it's not stated.
My point prove.
Like I said, that is regrettable. However, that doesn't change the fact that I still liked Discovery's first two hours better than TNG's first two hours. It also doesn't change the fact that you apparently gave TNG several seasons to get up and running--long enough to become an uber fan.
I hope it doesn't take long for Discovery to hit full stride. But, it's already doing better than TNG. That's a great sign. And, we've only seen the first two episodes--so it's way too early to write off the season. Discovery has not taken "a season, or two season or whatever to 'get good.'" It's been only two fucking episodes. Talk about jumping to conclusions.
I'll tell you what, if Discovery does waste the entire first season, I'll be very first to agree with you. I call them as I see them. I have no desire to prop up a show that isn't cutting it. But, we've seen only 2 out 15 episodes. Calling the season now is lame.
Because WHILE in command of a Starship he ordered his crew to fire on and kill inhabitants of a Federation planet. <--- By your comments they should have found his psychosis after he returned from the accident and never allowed him back on a Starship to do what got him locked up.
Um, yes it is:
From TOS - "The Omega Glory" transcript: http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/54.htm
What that Vulcan can project simple thoughts without touching someone and requiring great concentration to do it?
You inference was Vulcans could easily read minds without touching for a Mind Meld. <--- That's not what Spock did in the cases I cited.
It would be interesting if Star Fleet realizes this eventually and becomes the reason why they include a no-win scenario in the Academy's curriculum--the Kobayashi Maru.
Why should we give Discovery time, when we don't with most other shows? Why should the audience be forced to wait for it to be engaging? If The Orville had stumbled as badly out of the gate as Discovery has (for me) I would already have quit watching.
Which is a huge problem here. When you do this kind of story, you have to be invested/like in the characters, because you already know how everything plays out. Whatever peace and understanding they achieve with the Klingons is incredibly short-lived as the Klingons and the Federation are back at each others throats less than a decade later.
And (for me), they did a poor job of making me like or care about the characters.
The current tradition with the anime community is to give a show three to four episodes, and if its still not working, drop it. Some give shows three episodes but will listen to it something shifts in the fourth episodes as there have been a fair number of shows where the series plot doesn't really pick up until episode four, or the producers realized the first director wasn't cutting it, and replaced them with someone competent for episode four.
By my calculations, dramatic TV shows need about 75 seasons before they reach peak goodness. Granted, this is an untested theory, as no show has been around that long, but my math is right.
One difference is how much else there is to watch. TNG was better than its competition even when it wasn't good. Discovery is up against a lot of competition for viewers' time; it had better get better a lot faster than if it had launched decades earlier. And it may have already lost its chance to hook viewers for that stupid all-access thing - certainly the first two eps were not good enough that I would have signed up for it. Good enough for me to keep watching on a channel I already have, but they deliberately set themselves an out-of-the-gate challenge.
I really hope they sell the characters tomorrow. Burnham will take a lot of redeeming for me to root for her again, though, and she's the "main character" - so far, more than even Kirk was. We'll see if those two decisions - the strong focus on a single character and having her betray her captain in the first ep - can be justified by what comes later.
I really hope they sell the characters tomorrow. Burnham will take a lot of redeeming for me to root for her again, though, and she's the "main character" - so far, more than even Kirk was. We'll see if those two decisions - the strong focus on a single character and having her betray her captain in the first ep - can be justified by what comes later.
In fact, I would argue most shows are at their best in their first season. That's normally when they use up all their good ideas and then have to scrabble around in a hurry for the next one. Difficult Second Album syndrome applies equally to TV shows. Stranger Things is about to hit that hurdle.
Pilots, however, are a different matter. Many shows have weak pilots, or pilots that don't really gel with the rest of the show. It's a rare show that hits its stride right from day one, especially sci-fi and fantasy. Game of Thrones is an exception, but it is a book adaptation - most of the story, character work, etc is already laid down for them in advance.
In short, I will happily give a show two to three episodes to hit its stride. Two to three years however is unique to Trek. I think it is symptomatic of the way Trek series are made. Instead of having a story in mind that they want to tell, Trek creators tend to work in broad ideas about the show's setup and just hope that story plots flow from that -
It's a spaceship with a crew, OK, which of the crew are aliens? Which specific aliens and what do their foreheads look like? What does the ship look like? What colour are the nacelles?
This one is set on a space station. It's in orbit around a planet at first, then a wormhole. OK, great. What is the precise history of that planet's religion?
Trek shows are built on ideas, in the hope that stories will follow. It often takes two to three years for this to happen. Take TNG. There are plenty of books out there about the sheer amount of work that went into setting up TNG, casting, sets, ship design, props, effects, blah blah blah. But then their second episode story is... a remake of a TOS episode. Third is a racist caricature. And so on. Did no-one in all that lead in time think about what this ship and crew they were designing would actually do?
I think my thing is that the first two episodes feel completely different from what the series teaser shows that we got at the of the second episode. It is odd for the pilot and show itself to be so completely different.
We haven't even seen the place where most of the show occurs.
It's Babylon 5: The [Re]Gathering, more or less.
You're free to do what you want. No one is "forced." Let's not be ridiculous here, okay?
I'm not going to give up on a show after only two episodes. Especially when they were OK. You do what you want though.
As it was, the third episode of Discovery was freaking awesome!
This is absolutely true.
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