Building NCC-1701 [The Trek XI Way]

[B.J.]

Plecostomus said:
Submarine sections are welded at night after the sections cool and contract. This allows better alignment and eliminates errors caused by one section being in the sunlight and expanded and one section coming out of a fab area and being cooler. Once welded and locked in position, the difference in expansion and contraction can cause the very frame the very structure of the ship to warp and buckle.

ancient said:
-They'd have to keep the thing on the dark side of the Earth or inside a dock, to keep the hull away from the sun. I don't think having a temperature range of 600 degrees daily on the unfinished structure is a good idea, no matter what materials you use.

These two posts got me thinking. I know they didn't show the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards this way in that Voyager episode, but do you think there's a massive assembly location at Earth's (& possibly other planets') L2 point? This way, they can keep the yards in perpetual shadow for the reasons stated above.

 

[Christopher]

ancient said:
-They'd have to keep the thing on the dark side of the Earth or inside a dock, to keep the hull away from the sun. I don't think having a temperature range of 600 degrees daily on the unfinished structure is a good idea, no matter what materials you use.

You know, that's the first thing I've ever heard that might give the enclosed Spacedock from The Search for Spock a valid reason to exist.

 

[Kaziarl]

Captain Robert April said:
NCC-1701 was not the Federation flagship. She was one of thirteen Constitution class starships doing her job.

There's an old concept when writing fiction of this type: You can sell the impossible, but the highly improbable is a whole 'nother matter.

For example, the Will Smith "Wild Wild West" movie.

A big mechanical spider, no problem.

A black Secret Service agent in the 1870's? No way in hell.

Building the ship on the ground when all precedent to this point has been orbital construction falls into the same category.

Except that... hmm... the name Enterprise was the first ship in Starfleet, They've called Enterprise 1701 the flag ship, of at the very least on local group, and yes thats in the episodes, go watch them again. (One example if memory serves, watch the episode with the organians) And even if that weren't the case, just the name enterprise deserves special attention. So, to those of you who immediately jumped me just because I made a suggestion, while I welcome the constructive criticism, it wasn't very constructive.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

I don't recall the 1701 ever being called the "flagship," but my memory isn't what it used to be. I know the 1701-D was called as such. The problem is that the writers tossing this term around didn't seem to know what it actually meant past the colloquial usage meaning "very important." In Navies, on which Starfleet is based, a flag ship is a ship with a flag officer on board, which the Enterprise only was on occassion. The other usage is vague and pretty meaningless in my eyes. I never liked the idea that the Enterprise was any more important than any other ship in the fleet. Sure it had a legacy, but so did the Yorktown, the Constellation and the Constitution (among others). I'd like to think that those ships and thier captains were out having cool adventures just like the Big E.

 

[aridas sofia]

Kaziarl said:

Except that... hmm... the name Enterprise was the first ship in Starfleet, They've called Enterprise 1701 the flag ship, of at the very least on local group, and yes thats in the episodes, go watch them again. (One example if memory serves, watch the episode with the organians) And even if that weren't the case, just the name enterprise deserves special attention. So, to those of you who immediately jumped me just because I made a suggestion, while I welcome the constructive criticism, it wasn't very constructive.

I just double checked the transcripts. No mention of Enterprise as flagship in "Errand of Mercy," or in any episode of TOS or TAS that I could find. Can you be more specific?

 

[Kaziarl]

Aridas Sofia

Unfortunately no, It's been... along time since I've seen TOS, and unfortunately all my dvds are in storage.

EliyahuQeoni

I agree it's not the correct usage of the term, and just like you my memory could be fuzzy as well. I am fairly confident that it was said, and when I get a chance to watch the series from start to finish if I am wrong then I will admit it.

Now as I was trying to say, it's not neccesarily that ship, but the name. The first ship in starfleet, the first enterprise with the ncc1701 registry, the wars and other conflicts between ENT and TOS. The way I'm looking at it is this would have been a ceremonial relaunch of starfleet, back to it's ideals of exploration and peace, hence the launch from frisco bay. And also, if memory serves, didn't the dedication plaque on the enterprise say san fansisco fleet yards?


I appologize for not stating it better. As I've said on other threads I have a bad habit of that.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Kaziarl said:

Now as I was trying to say, it's not neccesarily that ship, but the name. The first ship in starfleet, the first enterprise with the ncc1701 registry,

But the Enterprise wasn't the first ship in Starfleet (unless I'm missing something somewhere). And the "NCC-1701" registry wouldn't have been important when it was first issued, it only became important because of the acomplishments of the ship and her crews.

 

[Kaziarl]

How is the enterprise not the first ship in the fleet? Was not the NX01 the first ship in starfleet? And was it not named enterprise? And as I said, it could have been of ceremonial importance in that starfleet is getting back to deep space exploration.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

I'm no expert on Enterprise, but so far as I'm aware the NX-01 was the first Warp 5 capable ship in Earth's Starfleet. I don't recall any indication that it was their first ship overall. Its been ages, but I seem to recall Earth having other ships flying around (wouldn't be much of a Fleet if they didn't).

But the NCC-1701 was in the Federation Starfleet, not the Earth Starfleet. It was the first ship named Enterprise in the Fed Starfleet, but it wasn't their first ship either.

 

[Kaziarl]

I seem to recall in the first episode Archer talking about being the first ship to be sent out, when they were doing their flyby of the NX01. Now this could be saying the first one to be sent into deep space, or it could be the first official starfleet ship, I don't think thats clarified. And even though the federation had not been formed, starfleet is still starfleet.

 

[Bill Morris]

Captain Robert April said:
What we have here is JJ & Co. spotting that 10+ year old pic someone did of their AMT model mixed into a picture of the Newport News shipyard, thinking that it was "kewl", and basing a teaser on it, then coming back and cranking out a lot of very lame excuses to justify their move.

I don't know if this is the one you mean, but just for reference here's the pic that was going around showing the Reliant being built on the ground:

 

[bryce]

Christopher said:

ancient said:
-They'd have to keep the thing on the dark side of the Earth or inside a dock, to keep the hull away from the sun. I don't think having a temperature range of 600 degrees daily on the unfinished structure is a good idea, no matter what materials you use.

You know, that's the first thing I've ever heard that might give the enclosed Spacedock from The Search for Spock a valid reason to exist.

Yeah, I was thinking that too! AWESOME! Because I love those things, but lately had read stuff here that made me agree that they had no real use.

In fact, in the TNG the episode with the holographic Leah Brams, didn't we see the 1701-D - or was it the galaxy Class Development Project...but we saw a Galaxy class being built IN a mushroom spacedock!!!

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

Kaziarl said:
And even though the federation had not been formed, starfleet is still starfleet.

I have to disagree. Earth's Starfleet and the Federation Starfleet are two different organizations. The Earth Fleet may have been melded into the Federation Fleet, along with Vulcan's Fleet and others, but it is a different organization. That's like saying that the Royal Navy is the same as the US Navy because some of the early US Naval ships/officers were from the RN.

 

[bryce]

I think that the Federation Starfleet as an outgrowth and expansion of the Earth Starfleet. Not the same organization exactly, but not a completely different one as well.

Obviously, I think we are meant to believe that this organization, and the UNESPA, *became* the foundation of the Federation Starfleet. All those ships and that infrastructure and the Academy and personal weren't just forgotten about and trashed, they transitioned to become the Fed Starfleet. Just like the Bajoran Milita was supposed to be in DS9.

There are tow many similarities. (The uniform color scheme, for example.) And they didn't just discard all those personal and ships and starbases infrastructure, they used it as a foundation.

Hell, even in Kirk's time, and as late as Picard's, there was talk that other Federation species had their own separate fleets. We had almost all Vulcan and all Human ships, etc...and in Picard's time, we still had all Vulcan ships, and an exchange program with the Benzites.

Starfleet *should* have been the Federation navy/defense/exploration arm...but often it was *treated* as a Human organization. They never really were exactly clear on that. In TU, we saw ALL human admirals running the fleet at the HQ on Earth. Where the Vulcan and other Federation memeber species.

At times, it was like Starfleet was just the Earth space navy, and at others like the Federation navy. Spock, it was *implied* was the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Until T'Pol, people took it for granted that he was.

Now, Enterprise was the first Starfleet warp 5 ship (and if *I* had created Enterprise, it would have been the first starship ship) period. But yeah, we had those older arrowhead and Intrepid style warp 3 ships. And Travis made mention of seeing pictures of previous Starfleet captians when he went to that Academy, or wherever he underwent Starfleet training. (It was when they were Trying to take a pic of Archer to hang there as well.)

But it was weird because in that episode about teh tests of the NX-Alpha and NX-Beta, they were just trying to break Warp *2*. I assume that was warp two with the new style of Warp 5 engines, but it almost seemed like Starfleet itself was trying to build the first engine that went Warp 2. But other times, they implied there had been a Starfleet previous to Enterprise for several decades.

Just like the thing about whether Starfleet was a Human/Earth or a federation organization, they really didn't seem to have thought too deeply about Starfleet history.

Honestly, Enterprise should have been a show about the FIRST Earth Starfleet, IMHO.

 

[Kaziarl]

Not really. Starfleet is part of the federation, yes, but it's not the federation. Thats like saying that the US Navy IS the US Government, and it's not. It's just PART of it. As for the Vulcans, it's never to my knowlage been said that the vulcan ships became part of starfleet. Even into the 24th century while, again, being part of the federation, are not part of starfleet.

Now to use another example of what is basically a military orginization, the National Guard has been part of the US Military since before the signing of the declaration, it's part of our history. It didn't start as the national guard, it started as a malitia. It wasn't called the national guard till many years later, but it's still the same to those of us who are in the guard.

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure there would have been enough dramatic potential in showing "Earth's first starship". Such a vessel would probably not have been capable of having any interesting adventures - or if she had one, this would prove her immediate undoing.

I'm not very fond of the idea that Kirk's ship was anything special, either. Sure, she explored strange new worlds - but that was all in a day's work for Kirk and his crew, a mundane rather than unique achievement for the future mankind.

Yes, the name Enterprise would have some history to it when Kirk's ship was built - at least now that we have seen ENT and learned that there was an early starship by that name. But early starships may have been a dime in a dozen. The adventures of Archer may have been followed by other, greater exploits by other, more prominent heroes, explaining why nobody in the 23rd or 24th centuries remembers Archer or considers him a worthy addition to, say, a list of past Earth explorers or an anecdote about Earth's past achievements.

There's something delightfully unassuming about the construction sequence we see in the trailer, too. No flags are flying there, no fancy logos are painted on the backs of the workers or on the sides of the cranes. It's just gritty work on yet another starship badly needed by Earth's military and/or exploration forces. Unlike Archer's ship, this one won't be an exercise in interstellar public relations - she will be a working vessel. Just like we saw her in TOS...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vance]

How is the enterprise not the first ship in the fleet?

The NX-01 was not in Star Fleet at all. 'Canon' indicates that the first actual Star Fleet vessel was the USS Dauntless, NCC-01.

The NCC-1701 wasn't even the first of her class. The TOS bible actually mentions that though she is of a rare type, there ARE others, and the Enterprise was explicitly NOT supposed to be treated as the 'magic ship'. It is never mentioned as the Flagship in any TOS, TAS, or TOS-related movie .. and that was deliberate.

 

[Christopher]

Vance said:
The NX-01 was not in Star Fleet at all. 'Canon' indicates that the first actual Star Fleet vessel was the USS Dauntless, NCC-01.

What?????

Are you somehow basing that on the fact that the ersatz Dauntless in VGR: "Hope and Fear" had the number NX-01-A, by analogy with the Enterprises being NCC-1701-A etc.? There's no reason in the world to assume that the recycling of registry numbers for the Enterprises is in any way a standardized or universal practice. We've seen plenty of Starfleet vessels that reused old names without reusing their registry numbers. Besides, NX is a prefix for experimental ships, so there's no reason to assume the numbers would have any kind of one-to-one correspondence with NCC registries. Besides besides, it wasn't even a real Starfleet vessel. It can't be taken as evidence of anything pertaining to the real Starfleet.

The NCC-1701 wasn't even the first of her class. The TOS bible actually mentions that though she is of a rare type, there ARE others, and the Enterprise was explicitly NOT supposed to be treated as the 'magic ship'. It is never mentioned as the Flagship in any TOS, TAS, or TOS-related movie .. and that was deliberate.

You're right about that much. This whole "flagship" nonsense is a regrettable case of fan sentiment infecting the canon. Far too many people assume that just because we ascribe special importance to Kirk's crew and their ship, everyone in their own reality must do the same.

Although I guess Roddenberry himself helped contribute to that in his TMP novelization, with the stuff about Kirk's ship being the only starship to return from a 5-year tour with both ship and crew substantially intact. But in TOS itself, the E was never treated as any more special than any other ship of its class.

And the 1701 designation was chosen purely because those numbers were easy to read on camera. It could just as easily have been 1707, say. It wasn't meant to imply that the E was "number 1" in any way.

 

[trevanian]

Or because 1701 was the street address where the model was first photographed.

 

[Deks]

Since the Enterprise NX-01 was only in service for about 10 years and decommissioned just prior to the formation of the Federation, it can still be constituted as a non Federation starship.
It was a Starfleet vessel that much was established, so the NCC-1701 from TOS being the first Federation starship to bear the name Enterprise would technically be accurate.

Semantics ... people created them and use them as solid backup to their claims all the time.
Why not in this case ?

And yes, the NX prefix usually establishes that the class of vessel is actually an experimental one.
It's up to Starfleet to remove the NX prefix and replace it with an N.C.C. one ... but it's not a requirement.
They can make a decision to keep a particular ship that bears a specific name as an experimental class and have it in active service along with it's sister ships that do not have the NX prefix.
Simple as that