Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[OCD Geek]

Spoiler: Canon!

Vampires were outed to the world after Harmony bit A. Dick.

Giles was brought back to life by his weird aunts who recreated his body as a teenager, with all the hormones that go with it.

I have to admit, even though this all sound a bit bizarre, I'm still curious to check out the comics, just to see exactly how everything plays out.

Spoiler

God, I forgot Andy Dick and TMZ played a role in outing vampires to the world.

To be fair about that last point, it was one of the few bizzare choices that worked like gangbusters.

Spoiler

Whedon and his "writers room" knew they were going to bring back Giles in Angel & Faith, but he gave Christos Gage 100% creative control over how it was done while giving him three options. Gage felt that if Giles came back like nothing happened, it would have cheapened his entire 25 issue Angel & Faith arc about consequences. If he brought him back as "Ripper" he would have been too much of a wild card (and he was afraid that future Buffy comic writers would have Ripper lust over Buffy).

By bringing him back as a twelve-to-thirteenish kid (which was a mistake on his aunts' parts and definitely not the plan), it had genuine consequences for Giles. He was reset to himself at that age in terms of everything except his memory. He still had all the magical knowledge, but had to relearn how to use magic. He now had hormones controlling his emotions. Plus is gave Gage a great Buffy/Giles dynamic to work with when he took over Buffy in Season 10. The surrogate daughter was now the surrogate mother.

 

[theenglish]

As for Spike's soul mission, this was why I quoted your post. I get the feeling after the attempted rape and now that Spike really didn't know what he was doing and was mad at himself for doing it. Do I condone what he did? Absolutely not. Still, this direction in the character really isn't as sudden if you understand the journey he was already on. It almost seemed like what he did was the tipping point, positive or negative.

Exactly. This is what I was referring to about Marsters final line in the "rape" episode. It was written to be less threatening but misinterpreted by the director. Regardless as to whether or not the scene should have been there it does deal on a couple of very sensitive real world issues. Men who go to far during sex unaware or unconscious of what they are actually doing--which is what I think Spike was supposed to be doing here. And earlier, somebody asked, why she just didn't push him away with her Slayer strength. Again there are many reports of strong women who feel helpless in the moment and just "freeze" up. (Certain law makers seem to enjoy dwelling on this aspect of sexual assault.) Regardless of the motives or the reactions, it doesn't make the action any less of a rape or any less horrific.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Omg I think I’m going to have to read these comics now

 

[OCD Geek]

Xander became insufferable post wedding. From leaving Anya at the alter, to being angry at all his friends, to thinking he was the Victim, I couldn't root for him anymore. To see him talk Willow down and not Buffy or even Tara was kind of anti-climatic. Just imagine the power of love if it had been Tara who saved Willow. The girlfriend who walked out on Willow because she couldn't take Willow's magic addiction being the one to save her by true love. Now that is what love can do, and that would have been a much more satisfying ending. You don't even need to change much. You can leave Buffy and Dawn because that story is important, Xander can be helping Anya with Giles, and Tara becomes the hero because she really was the Hero this entire season.

Here's the behind-the-scenes fallout for The-Scene-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named (with any future spoilers still redacted):

Here's the gist. Not only did many of the writers, Sarah Michelle Gellar and James Marsters feel that, as messed up as he is, Spike would never rape Buffy. Gellar and Marsters were also extremely uncomfortable about filming the scene. Like, they did not want to do it. They didn't feel safe. They really didn't want to do it. Here's where the shit hits the fan.

Noxon reportedly told them that they will do it because it's their job and that's what they're paid for. They reiterated that it wasn't just a creative disagreement about Spike. They straight up didn't feel comfortable or safe performing the scene. Noxon didn't give a shit. Then Gellar and Marsters announced that they quit the show, as did Anya actress Emma Caulfield. Noxon told the execs at UPN and 20th Century Fox Television that their stars just quit the show. They were furious and sent Joss Whedon (busy working on the Firefly pilot for a few months at this point) down to the set to give Gellar, Marsters and Caulfield an ultimatum: Either you film this scene and stay on for Season 7 like you are contracted to or UPN and 20th Century Fox Television will sue you to pay the cast and crew for the Season 7 that never was and for the ad and syndication revenue that both companies will lose.

Gellar and Marsters performed the scene. David Fury quit as Noxon's co-exec and joined Angel [Redacted]. And the following year Gellar, Marsters and Caulfield returned like they were contracted to. Except Gellar announced in Entertainment Weekly that she was quitting the show. [Redacted]

Something my sisters pointed out to me that I never noticed because I'm dense. If you look at the bloopers for Seasons 2-6, Gellar and Marsters are really chummy and seem to really have fun together. The bloopers for Season 7? Not so much. Apparently performing THAT scene under duress ruined their working relationship. Which is a damn shame.

 

[tomalak301]

Lessons

Remember a few weeks ago when I asked the question about when Cell Phones would enter into this show and did this show have the birth of the flip phone? Well, here is Season 7 and what was Dawn's gift? A Cell Phone. I found that quite amusing.

This one felt very season 1-ish other than the final scene where we pretty much take all the big bads from the prior years and Buffy and set the season in motion. What's up with that. Spike is so different with a soul. It reminded me of his origin episode in Season 5 where he was the weak guy everyone bullied. That will be an interesting dynamic this season I think. I think my favorite thing about this episode was the scenes in England with Giles and Willow. They actually acknowledged Willow having killed people and I was appreciative about that. They haven't forgotten the horrors she caused.

I hope the teaser with Istanbul will play a role this season. I'm thinking that was a slayer but it was so brief I'm not so sure. There was a lot of talk about going back to the beginning, especially with Sunnydale High reopening, Spike's trip through the past, and the hellmouth reopening. With that in mind, this was a decent start to the final season.

 

[Jayson1]

Exactly. This is what I was referring to about Marsters final line in the "rape" episode. It was written to be less threatening but misinterpreted by the director. Regardless as to whether or not the scene should have been there it does deal on a couple of very sensitive real world issues. Men who go to far during sex unaware or unconscious of what they are actually doing--which is what I think Spike was supposed to be doing here. And earlier, somebody asked, why she just didn't push him away with her Slayer strength. Again there are many reports of strong women who feel helpless in the moment and just "freeze" up. (Certain law makers seem to enjoy dwelling on this aspect of sexual assault.) Regardless of the motives or the reactions, it doesn't make the action any less of a rape or any less horrific.

I thought the final line and then the trials was done in order to create the illusion that Spike was going to go back to being evil and be a bad guy again in the next season.

Jason

 

[Sparkle Fabulosa]

I’m a bit late to the party but going back to the finale, I liked that Xander was the one who brought Willow out of the darkness. Her oldest and dearest friend, simply by saying that he loved her. The guy, who unlike all his friends, has no magical abilities, is the one that saved the world with his words.

 

[Jayson1]

I’m a bit late to the party but going back to the finale, I liked that Xander was the one who brought Willow out of the darkness. Her oldest and dearest friend, simply by saying that he loved her. The guy, who unlike all his friends, has no magical abilities, is the one that saved the world with his words.

I agree. I didn't think Xander's fall after the Wedding was any worst than anybody else. Everyone's morals took a beating that year except for Tara which also adds to her death being the most logical. She was in essence the one true innocent by the end of the season and the one who really deserved the least to suffer because everyone else did things that hurt each other and the ones they loved. Because her death is the most undeserved yet also maybe the most cruel in that she finally got back to Willow and died from a bullet that wasn't even meant for her making it all the more sad and tragic. The fact fans didn't like is something I have always seen as good in most tv shows. It means it hit home and mattered and evoked real human feeling from the audience. Something that you can't always do even when a series regular is involved. Just look how flat Jadzia Dax's death felt on DS9.

Jason

 

[theenglish]

I thought the final line and then the trials was done in order to create the illusion that Spike was going to go back to being evil and be a bad guy again in the next season.

Jason

I will fully admit that I could be mistaken in my memory, but I believe that I actually read it on this board back in the day. Given the source it could have been somebody's theory. I can't find a reference to it any where on the internet.

 

[tomalak301]

I’m a bit late to the party but going back to the finale, I liked that Xander was the one who brought Willow out of the darkness. Her oldest and dearest friend, simply by saying that he loved her. The guy, who unlike all his friends, has no magical abilities, is the one that saved the world with his words.

I can understand the sentiment. I think if they had written him so I wouldn’t hate him as much as I did it might have rang more true to me.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Season 7 has issues overall, but it opens strong, imo, and personally I've always thought Lessons was the best first episode of any season.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I got a theory.

Not a good one, but it makes a little sense.

Seeing Red was three episodes after Hells Bells.

The production order matches the airdate order.

Is it possible the wedding fell apart because Emma quit, if the cast heard about the incident before the wedding, and even though she unquit, they were afraid that she might quit again and it would be harder to write her out if she was Mrs Harris?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I wouldn't compare Tara's death to Jadzias, besides that they happened at the end of season 6 and it was a wrong place/wrong time situation with somebody not targeting them.

Tara's death fed into the season theme of 'The true evil is ourselves, the true hell is the one we live in' (Which also plays into a spoilery thing if you haven't seen Angel). Jadzia's felt really throwaway, like 'Whatever'.

I like the way season 6 ended except of course for losing Tara. When I saw the Xander's wedding episode I didn't like it at first, but I think they made it credible when they showed us how Xander's father was.

 

[Forbin]

BTW, Tomolak, it's "trope," not "troupe"
-- Grammar Nazi Forbin

 

[Jayson1]

BTW, Tomolak, it's "trope," not "troupe"
-- Grammar Nazi Forbin

Unless of course your talking about a big epic shot of massive troupes marching in file or standing at attention to denote just how powerful this army is going to be and which case it is both.

Jason

 

[tomalak301]

I wouldn't compare Tara's death to Jadzias, besides that they happened at the end of season 6 and it was a wrong place/wrong time situation with somebody not targeting them.

Tara's death fed into the season theme of 'The true evil is ourselves, the true hell is the one we live in' (Which also plays into a spoilery thing if you haven't seen Angel). Jadzia's felt really throwaway, like 'Whatever'.

I like the way season 6 ended except of course for losing Tara. When I saw the Xander's wedding episode I didn't like it at first, but I think they made it credible when they showed us how Xander's father was.

I wonder if I have been too hard on Xander and if over time on rewatches I might soften a bit. I get Xander and Willow have this strong bond, but I always thought the stronger bond was Willow and Buffy, especially with scenes like the end of the second episode in season 3 where Willow and Buffy are laughing over coffee. I think my issue might not have been with the actual wedding. Cold feet happens and it sucks. I think it was the aftermath and his behavior in the following episodes. I wonder if there was a way to do that wedding scene, maybe keep some of his likeability that he had grown in the season already. I guess it was just a terrible situation for everyone involved, but in a way that was what season 6 was all about.

@Forbin

Thank You.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

BTW, Tomolak, it's "trope," not "troupe"
-- Grammar Nazi Forbin

Spelling is not grammar.
-- Linguistics Nazi



just playing, I've always wanted to do that just once...

 

[JD]

Spoiler

God, I forgot Andy Dick and TMZ played a role in outing vampires to the world.

Spoiler: Season 9

Oh, Andy Dick. I thought when he said "A Dick", that she just bit a guy there. Like she was giving him a blow job and accidentally bit him or something. The capitalized A and D didn't really register.

To be fair about that last point, it was one of the few bizzare choices that worked like gangbusters.

Spoiler

Whedon and his "writers room" knew they were going to bring back Giles in Angel & Faith, but he gave Christos Gage 100% creative control over how it was done while giving him three options. Gage felt that if Giles came back like nothing happened, it would have cheapened his entire 25 issue Angel & Faith arc about consequences. If he brought him back as "Ripper" he would have been too much of a wild card (and he was afraid that future Buffy comic writers would have Ripper lust over Buffy).

By bringing him back as a twelve-to-thirteenish kid (which was a mistake on his aunts' parts and definitely not the plan), it had genuine consequences for Giles. He was reset to himself at that age in terms of everything except his memory. He still had all the magical knowledge, but had to relearn how to use magic. He now had hormones controlling his emotions. Plus is gave Gage a great Buffy/Giles dynamic to work with when he took over Buffy in Season 10. The surrogate daughter was now the surrogate mother.

Spoiler: Season 9 or 10, not sure which

It definitely is a good way to bring him back, but still have some real interesting consequences to it.

I hope the teaser with Istanbul will play a role this season. I'm thinking that was a slayer but it was so brief I'm not so sure. There was a lot of talk about going back to the beginning, especially with Sunnydale High reopening, Spike's trip through the past, and the hellmouth reopening. With that in mind, this was a decent start to the final season.

That is the big set up for the season's arc.

 

[Masiral]

Can you imagine that being done on the television show budget?

Which I really think is the biggest problem with Season 8 - they didn't have to work within the confines of a TV budget, so they went crazy!

 

[Turtletrekker]

@JD-- the tabloid headline read "Hot Vamp Gets a Taste Of A. Dick."

https://buffy.fandom.com/wiki/Andy_Dick

Personally, I can't think of a better way to describe Andy Dick.