Gah, I've been on a diet for three months so even though I haven't had a Big Mac in probably 20 years suddenly I really want a Big Mac.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer
- Thread starter tomalak301
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As You Were
I'm conflicted about this one. On one hand Riley comes back and this episode felt like a second chance of sorts for Buffy to straighten things out with him. The whole demon plot kind of went nowhere, yet I appreciated Riley saying bye to the team. On the other hand, maybe Buffy is realizing that being with Spike is bad, and this is the first steps towards her recovery. That final scene with her actually calling Spike William had a much more serious tone than any of their other "Break Ups". I did love the in-joke regarding the fast food smell though. I'm glad to see some of Perky Buffy returning.
I haven't talked about Xander and Anya's wedding that much, but I've been enjoying that storyline. Anya is still the best, and Xander has actually become a stand up guy. Who would have thought having a former demon in his life would have made him better. I know he was kind of directionless in Season 4, but his relationship with Anya is probably the most "genuine" relationship on the show, now unfortunately that Willow and Tara are no longer together.
I'm conflicted about this one. On one hand Riley comes back and this episode felt like a second chance of sorts for Buffy to straighten things out with him. The whole demon plot kind of went nowhere, yet I appreciated Riley saying bye to the team. On the other hand, maybe Buffy is realizing that being with Spike is bad, and this is the first steps towards her recovery. That final scene with her actually calling Spike William had a much more serious tone than any of their other "Break Ups". I did love the in-joke regarding the fast food smell though. I'm glad to see some of Perky Buffy returning.
I haven't talked about Xander and Anya's wedding that much, but I've been enjoying that storyline. Anya is still the best, and Xander has actually become a stand up guy. Who would have thought having a former demon in his life would have made him better. I know he was kind of directionless in Season 4, but his relationship with Anya is probably the most "genuine" relationship on the show, now unfortunately that Willow and Tara are no longer together.
I love how at the end of Doublemeat Palace after the show hinted that the burgers were people, it turned out that the burgers were flavored vegetable matter and the secret ingredient was meat flavor.
I like that Riley got a chance to redeem himself. That whole speech "This doesn't lower you." Was perfect.
I like that Riley got a chance to redeem himself. That whole speech "This doesn't lower you." Was perfect.
His wife was incredible on Banshee and is now collecting wages for services on The 100.
I had to rewatch that scene because I follow the Stock Market and one of the big IPOs that just happened was Beyond Meat (A company specializing in meatless alternatives). I heard Vegetable and I was like, did Buffy do the whole meatless craze before anyone else even thought of it. I rewatched it and figured, no not really, but it was fun to think about.
Hell's Bells
I think this is one of those episodes where I wish I had watched it shortly after everyone else watched it. I'm sure there were quite the debates on if Xander did the right thing by calling off the wedding. I think what sucks is this season has been really depressing and this storyline has been the one that has provided some levity. It's almost like the writers in season 6 decided no one can be happy, yet this show has had some comedic elements in the past. I can understand Xander's reasoning, and his parents were racist A-holes, but to break Anya's heart on her wedding day is rough. It looks like Anya might be going back to being a Vengeance Demon based on the ending and that is sad too, because while she was a human she learned so much.
I liked the episode, but they really have been laying it on with the depressing elements in season 6.
Normal Again
That was one of the craziest and best episodes of the season. Shifting from reality to the mental institution was awesome and you really weren't sure which was which. Also we learned more about Buffy's origin story here, how she really was in a mental institution because the Vampires freaked her out. I keep wondering what will it take to get "our" Buffy back and honestly I'm not sure anymore. You think she's making steps in one episode and then in another this happens and it keeps you guessing. I loved seeing Joyce back again, as she plays the alternate version of Buffy's mom really well. Also, Spike with some wisdom. I honestly can't figure out Spike this season. One minute he's this evil vampire who is serving as Buffy's play thing, and the next he's talking about human nature.
This season really has a depressing feel, but there is just so much happening. It's probably the most "dense" season of the show, even if it's probably not going to be my favorite.
Entropy
Xander's an asshole. He has no right to be angry at Anya. He left her at the alter for heaven sake. It's amazing. They were doing well the last season and a half to kind of build Xander back up to respectability but Anya's speech was spot on. He is an insecure coward. And then Spike actually fulfills his word and tells Xander about Buffy. Just when you think things are getting back together, they break a part again. This season is really a rollar coaster of emotions.
I think this is one of those episodes where I wish I had watched it shortly after everyone else watched it. I'm sure there were quite the debates on if Xander did the right thing by calling off the wedding. I think what sucks is this season has been really depressing and this storyline has been the one that has provided some levity. It's almost like the writers in season 6 decided no one can be happy, yet this show has had some comedic elements in the past. I can understand Xander's reasoning, and his parents were racist A-holes, but to break Anya's heart on her wedding day is rough. It looks like Anya might be going back to being a Vengeance Demon based on the ending and that is sad too, because while she was a human she learned so much.
I liked the episode, but they really have been laying it on with the depressing elements in season 6.
Normal Again
That was one of the craziest and best episodes of the season. Shifting from reality to the mental institution was awesome and you really weren't sure which was which. Also we learned more about Buffy's origin story here, how she really was in a mental institution because the Vampires freaked her out. I keep wondering what will it take to get "our" Buffy back and honestly I'm not sure anymore. You think she's making steps in one episode and then in another this happens and it keeps you guessing. I loved seeing Joyce back again, as she plays the alternate version of Buffy's mom really well. Also, Spike with some wisdom. I honestly can't figure out Spike this season. One minute he's this evil vampire who is serving as Buffy's play thing, and the next he's talking about human nature.
This season really has a depressing feel, but there is just so much happening. It's probably the most "dense" season of the show, even if it's probably not going to be my favorite.
Entropy
Xander's an asshole. He has no right to be angry at Anya. He left her at the alter for heaven sake. It's amazing. They were doing well the last season and a half to kind of build Xander back up to respectability but Anya's speech was spot on. He is an insecure coward. And then Spike actually fulfills his word and tells Xander about Buffy. Just when you think things are getting back together, they break a part again. This season is really a rollar coaster of emotions.
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I've been waiting until you got further into the season to see your reaction. This is absolutely the darkest season of the show in terms of character arcs and stories. For that reason, it was controversial when it came out--but it is well done and really takes the characters to places they haven't gone before. For me, I was really conflicted about the season as I, like you, missed the Buffy we had grown to love. On the other hand, it was a really good choice to focus on something different than we had before. I think you will find that, as you reach the end of the season, it all makes thematic sense.
I love the Tara/Dawn dynamic ... Tara is totally the "Cool Aunt" in the equation. (Yes, they're the same generation and less than 10 years apart, but as soon as Joyce died, I think you can argue that every Scooby who's roughly Buffy's age moved into a different bracket for Dawn.)
Throughout Season 6, Tara really is the one doing all of the emotional labor for the group...
Seeing Red
Well here we are. The moment of anticipation and for a season of so much depression, angst, addiction, and darkness, they managed to get darker. You have two really terrible things happening in this episode, the Bathroom rape scene (The controversial scene in question for the last month), and Tara getting shot. My first reaction is I think the writers took things a little too far. I know this show is growing up as it's viewers are growing up, but this is still a show with a younger demographic on UPN, which was the teen network. We've already had a lot of risque things this season, sex, drugs, addiction, you name it. To have this episode come kind of feels like pouring it on and to be honest, I think I've already made a judgement that this season is definitely not as good as Seasons 2, or 5. I might put it above 3 though, and I liked season 3. This season is good, and I'm actually looking forward to the end of it, but it's been emotionally rough.
Upon reflection, I think in the context of this episode and everything that has been happening, those two scenes were really powerful scenes in an already powerful season. I'm actually shocked it happened this way too. My preconceptions got the best of me and I actually apologize for that. The thing is though we've had sex scenes with Buffy and Spike quite a bit this season, so for Spike to attempt to rape her felt like it came out of left field and was shocking and sickening. I'm also not sure if it was out of character or not. Honestly, I don't even know how to write about it here because I don't know what to say really.
As for Tara, the other night the troupe I was thinking about was the Bury Your Gays troupe. I'm a fan of Orphan Black, and I remember the controversy of what happened on The 100 (Even though I don't watch the show) and it nearly happened on Orphan Black with Delphine (A character one of the clones loved) less than a year later. What I was thinking was considering all the sex we had seen up to this point, Tara's death would have been the one that started the Bury Your Gays troupe (And I read the synopsis of the next episode, I know Tara is dead). Still, that bathroom scene was a lot more painful than I anticipated.
So basically I would like to ask a favor of @JD and @CorporalClegg, and anyone else. Now that I'm here, and without spoiling if you can, what was the fall out of this. To me, it's one thing to be an actress and be paid quite a bit of money, but they have put Gellar through the ringer multiple times this season. I think that's why I am a little down on it, despite binging the show. I know it's acting and such, but my god when is dark too dark, especially for a younger audience (And I look at myself as a senior in High School when this episode aired and it was a very popular show when I was going to HS). This season must have been mentally draining for her.
Also, @CorporalClegg, I went back to read your post about the horrors women face and I understand your point. I just think in the context of the season, they might have taken it too far.
As for binging the show, right now I'm almost at the end and it's like you can't put a book down because you see the finish line. I think why I moved so quickly with this episode was because I was anticipating it and now that it's past, I might slow down, or I might finish the season tomorrow night.
Well here we are. The moment of anticipation and for a season of so much depression, angst, addiction, and darkness, they managed to get darker. You have two really terrible things happening in this episode, the Bathroom rape scene (The controversial scene in question for the last month), and Tara getting shot. My first reaction is I think the writers took things a little too far. I know this show is growing up as it's viewers are growing up, but this is still a show with a younger demographic on UPN, which was the teen network. We've already had a lot of risque things this season, sex, drugs, addiction, you name it. To have this episode come kind of feels like pouring it on and to be honest, I think I've already made a judgement that this season is definitely not as good as Seasons 2, or 5. I might put it above 3 though, and I liked season 3. This season is good, and I'm actually looking forward to the end of it, but it's been emotionally rough.
Upon reflection, I think in the context of this episode and everything that has been happening, those two scenes were really powerful scenes in an already powerful season. I'm actually shocked it happened this way too. My preconceptions got the best of me and I actually apologize for that. The thing is though we've had sex scenes with Buffy and Spike quite a bit this season, so for Spike to attempt to rape her felt like it came out of left field and was shocking and sickening. I'm also not sure if it was out of character or not. Honestly, I don't even know how to write about it here because I don't know what to say really.
As for Tara, the other night the troupe I was thinking about was the Bury Your Gays troupe. I'm a fan of Orphan Black, and I remember the controversy of what happened on The 100 (Even though I don't watch the show) and it nearly happened on Orphan Black with Delphine (A character one of the clones loved) less than a year later. What I was thinking was considering all the sex we had seen up to this point, Tara's death would have been the one that started the Bury Your Gays troupe (And I read the synopsis of the next episode, I know Tara is dead). Still, that bathroom scene was a lot more painful than I anticipated.
So basically I would like to ask a favor of @JD and @CorporalClegg, and anyone else. Now that I'm here, and without spoiling if you can, what was the fall out of this. To me, it's one thing to be an actress and be paid quite a bit of money, but they have put Gellar through the ringer multiple times this season. I think that's why I am a little down on it, despite binging the show. I know it's acting and such, but my god when is dark too dark, especially for a younger audience (And I look at myself as a senior in High School when this episode aired and it was a very popular show when I was going to HS). This season must have been mentally draining for her.
Also, @CorporalClegg, I went back to read your post about the horrors women face and I understand your point. I just think in the context of the season, they might have taken it too far.
As for binging the show, right now I'm almost at the end and it's like you can't put a book down because you see the finish line. I think why I moved so quickly with this episode was because I was anticipating it and now that it's past, I might slow down, or I might finish the season tomorrow night.
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I'm going to leave the comments about the actual rape scene to others. Definitely, this was an emotional and traumatic low point for all the characters involved. One thing that was mishandled IIRC, was Spike's final scene. He wasn't directed the way the writers intended in the way he delivered his final lines. I'm going to leave it at that for now, but I will try to remember to bring it up again when you get to the end of the season and into season 7 when Marsters returns to the story.
The ending of Entropy is so sweet and all throughout Seeing Red because of the Willow and Tara goodness, only to have them end so tragically. Also Seeing Red is the only episode where Amber Benson is in the opening credits.
I’ve never understood why Buffy, having Slayer strength, didn’t just kick Spike off?
I’ve never understood why Buffy, having Slayer strength, didn’t just kick Spike off?
It was a violation. She probably didn’t have the strength to.
The "fallout", as you say, was pretty big. As I said way back when I first brought it, the episode has come to define the whole show for a good portion of the fandom. I know people who pretty much said "Fuck it. I'm out." A lot of them still haven't seen season seven.
And the toll on the cast and crew has already been touched on, but I mean you could probably write books on it. I think one of the more notable things is the strain the whole situation started having on Gellar and Hannigan's relationship. For a long time, they were as close as Buffy and Will. And then they weren't. And no one really knows what happened, but it was around mid-2002 where things started to go south. There's been a lot of speculation over the years. And nowadays they both downplay it. But the HIMYM people wanted to bring Gellar in as a joke cameo at one point and Hannigan flat-out refused. They say they've buried the hatchet, but I think it's the same hatchet that John and Paul had buried in the late 70s right before John was killed. #Yokofactor
And the toll on the cast and crew has already been touched on, but I mean you could probably write books on it. I think one of the more notable things is the strain the whole situation started having on Gellar and Hannigan's relationship. For a long time, they were as close as Buffy and Will. And then they weren't. And no one really knows what happened, but it was around mid-2002 where things started to go south. There's been a lot of speculation over the years. And nowadays they both downplay it. But the HIMYM people wanted to bring Gellar in as a joke cameo at one point and Hannigan flat-out refused. They say they've buried the hatchet, but I think it's the same hatchet that John and Paul had buried in the late 70s right before John was killed. #Yokofactor
God, I'd forgotten the rape and Tara's death were in the same episode. I mean, WTF, Marti??
As I heard the story of the rape scene, it was based on an actual event in Marti Noxon's life. A man she was seeing wanted to break it off, and Marti tried to change his mind by forcing herself on him. The event was supposedly not nearly so violent or violating as the scene filmed. I guess she didn't realize reversing the gender roles would put a different light on it. Supposedly it was not written to be as violent, but the director didn't realize this and had James and Sarah go full-tilt. Check spoilers in previous posts for fuller discussions of it.
As I heard the story of the rape scene, it was based on an actual event in Marti Noxon's life. A man she was seeing wanted to break it off, and Marti tried to change his mind by forcing herself on him. The event was supposedly not nearly so violent or violating as the scene filmed. I guess she didn't realize reversing the gender roles would put a different light on it. Supposedly it was not written to be as violent, but the director didn't realize this and had James and Sarah go full-tilt. Check spoilers in previous posts for fuller discussions of it.
Going way back in the thread, I didn't get a chance to mention Michelle Branch. Her scene in Buffy was the first time I'd seen or heard her, and holy shit, what a great singer. I ran out and got her CDs immediately (yes, there were record stores then!!).
There was a humorous exchange right here at the time, though. Someone else (I forgot who), in reaction to her number, posted that they were sick of these half-baked, crappy, phony acts showing up at the bronze, and this "Stevie Nicks wannabe" was the last straw. He got a round thrashing and a reality check from everyone here who knew who Branch was.
There was a humorous exchange right here at the time, though. Someone else (I forgot who), in reaction to her number, posted that they were sick of these half-baked, crappy, phony acts showing up at the bronze, and this "Stevie Nicks wannabe" was the last straw. He got a round thrashing and a reality check from everyone here who knew who Branch was.
I wanted to but it said spoilers for the finale and the series finale and I was told not to read those yet. Don’t want to spoil season seven.
And the attempted rape scene wasn’t suppose to be violent? The sex scenes in episodes like Smashed, and Wrecked was not violent. This scene was violently disturbing.
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Yes he is.
That's part of the problem. It's extremely out of character. Look, Spike is a soulless monster and a serial murderer. There's no doubt about that. But he's always been extremely respectful of women, even in his soulless afterlife. Well, except for Harmony. He was always a dick to Harmony.
And he's never, in the present day or the flashbacks to the powdered wig days, committed rape. Angelus was a rapist, particularly of nuns. We never see him commit rape to my knowledge, but it is both implied and discussed. Spike? Not so much.
I'll repost what I spoiler posted a while back (with anything that's still spoilery redacted) once you finish Season 6. Otherwise most of it will be redacted instead of just a couple sentences.
Going way back in the thread, I didn't get a chance to mention Michelle Branch. Her scene in Buffy was the first time I'd seen or heard her, and holy shit, what a great singer. I ran out and got her CDs immediately (yes, there were record stores then!!).
There was a humorous exchange right here at the time, though. Someone else (I forgot who), in reaction to her number, posted that they were sick of these half-baked, crappy, phony acts showing up at the bronze, and this "Stevie Nicks wannabe" was the last straw. He got a round thrashing and a reality check from everyone here who knew who Branch was.
I actually downloaded Branch's first two albums on Sunday. Her song lyrics and themes are mostly the same, and her Singles were her best songs. She was a great singer though, and yes, "Goodbye to You" was her best song and takes on an entirely new meaning now that I've seen Tabula Rasa.
It was, hell yes, as filmed. My recall may be faulty, but as I understood the explanation of the real-world event back then, Marti was trying to remind her ex how good it felt to be together by getting physical, assumed he'd join in as soon as he 'came to his senses', and when it wasn't working she got carried away and kept trying until he forcefully made her stop. Supposedly that's how the scene was written, with Spike as the aggressor. Somewhere between the writing and the filming it became full-on attempted rape.
Come to think of it, Goodbye to You is the only song of hers on my place list any more. Hm.
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