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Bryan Singer sex abuse allegations

Apparently everyone knows that Roland Emmerich and Bryan Singer likes young, barely-legal guys. The parties are known. Their tastes are known.
Statements like that are dangerous. And now you've also thrown another director name into the mix. Why?




The whole thing is only one step away from being turned on its head by homophobes, with generalizations like "look at the gays, they are also all pedophile", and films like X-Men are then categorized as "gay propaganda" by the "pedophile dude". It's already in there with the broad allegation that Hollywood was somehow infested with pedophiles.

I'm just waiting for some headline like "What did Ian McKellan know?"
 
So much for the presumption of innocence...

Why? Was he arrested, convicted and imprisoned without the seeking out of evidence against him and the offering of a trial by his peers? Because otherwise I've no idea what you're talking about.

"Presumption of innocence" doesn't mean that everyone, everywhere must accept someone accused of something as being innocent until we're proven otherwise. It means that the government and justice system has to presume someone innocent and build a case to convict.

The Defense in a case doesn't have to prove innocence since his client is already innocent by default. The Defense just has to weaken the case against his client and/or blow holes in it enough to convince a judge and/or jury that there's not enough proof to convict.

You? Me? The media? The internet? The rest of the world?

We can say someone is guilty all we want, we're under no obligation to presume someone is innocent and are allowed to form our own opinions and conclusions based on the information available.

Seeing a story like this and saying "so much for presumption of innocence" is no different than seeing someone fired for saying something stupid on social media and saying, "so much for Freedom of Speech."

Rights don't mean that.
 
So much for the presumption of innocence...

Why? Was he arrested, convicted and imprisoned without the seeking out of evidence against him and the offering of a trial by his peers? Because otherwise I've no idea what you're talking about.

"Presumption of innocence" doesn't mean that everyone, everywhere must accept someone accused of something as being innocent until we're proven otherwise. It means that the government and justice system has to presume someone innocent and build a case to convict.

The Defense in a case doesn't have to prove innocence since his client is already innocent by default. The Defense just has to weaken the case against his client and/or blow holes in it enough to convince a judge and/or jury that there's not enough proof to convict.

You? Me? The media? The internet? The rest of the world?

We can say someone is guilty all we want, we're under no obligation to presume someone is innocent and are allowed to form our own opinions and conclusions based on the information available.

Seeing a story like this and saying "so much for presumption of innocence" is no different than seeing someone fired for saying something stupid on social media and saying, "so much for Freedom of Speech."

Rights don't mean that.
Thank God someone has a head on their shoulders. I get so tired of hearing people babble on about that crap without having any idea of what they're saying, and you replied to it far more elegantly than I ever could.
 
You? Me? The media? The internet? The rest of the world?

We can say someone is guilty all we want, we're under no obligation to presume someone is innocent and are allowed to form our own opinions and conclusions based on the information available.

Seeing a story like this and saying "so much for presumption of innocence" is no different than seeing someone fired for saying something stupid on social media and saying, "so much for Freedom of Speech."

But he's also guaranteed the right to a fair trial. Which becomes pretty impossible when everyone begins calling him a pedophile. I prefer waiting for some actual evidence to appear before I condemn him.
 
"Presumption of innocence" doesn't mean that everyone, everywhere must accept someone accused of something as being innocent until we're proven otherwise.

No, but that's not to say we shouldn't do it anyway. It's just basic human decency, IMHO.

True, people on this board, reading this thread, are in no position to affect the outcome of any resulting trial, so it really doesn't matter if we think Singer is guilty or not. (And if somebody who already thinks he is, is called to be a juror, the defense can always reject them.) Therefore, in a very real sense, people can think whatever they want about him. But just ask yourself why you think he's guilty. Just because he's gay? Because one person accused him of something? Neither of those is enough, of course.
 
So much for the presumption of innocence...

Why? Was he arrested, convicted and imprisoned without the seeking out of evidence against him and the offering of a trial by his peers? Because otherwise I've no idea what you're talking about.

"Presumption of innocence" doesn't mean that everyone, everywhere must accept someone accused of something as being innocent until we're proven otherwise. It means that the government and justice system has to presume someone innocent and build a case to convict.

The Defense in a case doesn't have to prove innocence since his client is already innocent by default. The Defense just has to weaken the case against his client and/or blow holes in it enough to convince a judge and/or jury that there's not enough proof to convict.

You? Me? The media? The internet? The rest of the world?

We can say someone is guilty all we want, we're under no obligation to presume someone is innocent and are allowed to form our own opinions and conclusions based on the information available.

Seeing a story like this and saying "so much for presumption of innocence" is no different than seeing someone fired for saying something stupid on social media and saying, "so much for Freedom of Speech."

Rights don't mean that.
Thank God someone has a head on their shoulders. I get so tired of hearing people babble on about that crap without having any idea of what they're saying, and you replied to it far more elegantly than I ever could.

Actually, presumption of innocence is the very essence of "I don't know anything, so I shut up". You are supposed to be neutral if you don't know anything. And being neutral means presuming innocence.

Presuming guilt is actually the variation of talking bull without knowing anything. That becomes very apparent when you get the answers to the question "Why do you think he's guilty?" That opinion can only be based on hearsay, gut feelings and "just because".


And the right to be treated innocent until proven guilty can be enforced any time, so a person's right to talk bullshit definitely ends there. Public accusations that cannot be proven are defamation, and you can take legal actions against any individual that engages in such an activity.
 
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Apparently everyone knows that Roland Emmerich and Bryan Singer likes young, barely-legal guys. The parties are known. Their tastes are known.
Statements like that are dangerous. And now you've also thrown another director name into the mix. Why?




The whole thing is only one step away from being turned on its head by homophobes, with generalizations like "look at the gays, they are also all pedophile", and films like X-Men are then categorized as "gay propaganda" by the "pedophile dude". It's already in there with the broad allegation that Hollywood was somehow infested with pedophiles.

I'm just waiting for some headline like "What did Ian McKellan know?"

Someone's tastes are their tastes. I didn't invent it, it is what it is and i brought it up because its relevant to the conversation.

I brought Emmerich's name into it because he's known for hosting these types of parties with Singer.

I don't think people should ignore this, if true, just because of what homophobes will think. Shouldnt even be a consideration. Who cares what they think? They're idiots anyway.
 
Actually, presumption of innocence is the very essence of "I don't know anything, so I shut up". You are supposed to be neutral if you don't know anything. And being neutral means presuming innocence.

Presuming guilt is actually the variation of talking bull without knowing anything. That becomes very apparent when you get the answers to the question "Why do you think he's guilty?" That opinion can only be based on hearsay, gut feelings and "just because".


And the right to be treated innocent until proven guilty can be enforced any time, so a person's right to talk bullshit definitely ends there. Public accusations that cannot be proven are defamation, and you can take legal actions against any individual that engages in such an activity.
So I'm sure that'll stop YOU from accusing the other guy from making false accusations without knowing the truth of the matter, too. Amirite or amirite?

Of course not, because like every post you make, you're talking out your ass just like everyone else. And you're just as free to do so, just as everyone is free to condemn Singer if they think he's a teenage-raping scumbag.
 
So I'm sure that'll stop YOU from accusing the other guy from making false accusations without knowing the truth of the matter, too. Amirite or amirite?
That's a pretty lame comeback, and you know it. When I say along the lines of "you shouldn't judge before you know anything", I don't accuse anybody "of making false accusations".
 
Actually, presumption of innocence is the very essence of "I don't know anything, so I shut up". You are supposed to be neutral if you don't know anything. And being neutral means presuming innocence.

Presuming guilt is actually the variation of talking bull without knowing anything. That becomes very apparent when you get the answers to the question "Why do you think he's guilty?" That opinion can only be based on hearsay, gut feelings and "just because".

Back at the beginning of the thread I said (apparently not clearly enough for some posters, but anyway), that I didn't know if Singer was innocent or guilty. Sp please don't take what I'm about to say as a comment on his innocence or guilt.

However, I feel that it should be pointed out that the presumption of innocence is a legal term that only applies in a court of law to a jury or other trier of fact. Other than the fact it's nice to keep an open mind, and not try someone in the press, there's no reason why a person can't legitimately form an opinion about someone or something before a judge or jury rules on it.

Indeed, were we to try to shunt all decision making to the province of the courts we would effectively be consigning our power and duty as informed citizens off onto a handulmof jurists and unelected triers of fact.

In other words, it's one thing to keep am open mind. It's another to bury your head in the sand.

Maybe I am completely wrong, but for now I'm going to presume Singer is innocent until proven guilty.

In America, you're now guilty until proven guilty.

Unless you are a white guy in Florida who kills an unarmed black teen in "self defense", then you are guilt until proven guilty... but freed.


Oh, geez, not this again. Don't you have anything better to do than derail a thread? And at least get the guys's race correct.
 
In America, you're now guilty until proven guilty.

Unless you are a white guy in Florida who kills an unarmed black teen in "self defense", then you are guilt until proven guilty... but freed.


Oh, geez, not this again. Don't you have anything better to do than derail a thread? And at least get the guys's race correct.
As opposed to the 'I'm not saying Singer's a pedophile, but...' routine you're on.
 

FWIW? I've formed no opinion on this issue as to Singer's guilt or innocence. Right now as far as I'm concerned I think of him the same way before this story broke out. As "just a guy out there" once more evidence comes to play I may change my mind.

Just wanted to point out that as people not involved with the legal processes of this incident we're free to form our own opinions. "Innocent until proving guilty" does not apply in the Court of Public Opinion, it may form itself however it sees fit.

But he's also guaranteed the right to a fair trial. Which becomes pretty impossible when everyone begins calling him a pedophile.

Nonsense. Judges and juries are instructed on how to operate in a court of law in determining the guilt or innocence of a defendant. Juries are vetted doing voir dire to weed out anyone who may have already formed a solid conclusion based on evidence presented in the media. Jury pools in most areas are too vastly large for EVERYONE to have formed the same opinion. 12 (or however many) people will certainly be found who can act as impartial jurors. If a sufficient impartial jury cannot be found there's always a change of venue to a place where an impartial jury CAN be found. Considering I doubt the millions of jury-serving eligible adults in this country will be convinced of, or even hear about, Singer's story I think a viable impartial jury can be found.

Just because the story hits the media doesn't mean that immediately all 300 million Americans hear about the story and instantly form an opinion, and especially one strong enough that cannot be put aside during a legal proceeding where evidence needs to be presented to prove guilt.

I prefer waiting for some actual evidence to appear before I condemn him.

As is your right and your choice. It's a choice I've made as well. But I, you, and everyone else is welcome to form whatever opinion they want because we have the freedom to do so. "Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to you and me and our personal thoughts. It only applies to how an accused criminal is treated by the government and how the case against him is built and presented. (I.E. guilt has to be proven, rather than innocence needing to be proven.)

If action is taken against Singer he is considered innocent. He will still have all of his rights and freedoms as an American citizen (at most curbed a bit by whatever conditions exist if he is arrested, charged, and released on bond pending trial), in the courtroom the Prosecution will have to present sufficient evidence to a jury in order to prove guilt. If they cannot do this sufficiently and/or has their case disproven or contradicted by the defense he will likely found innocent and released.

Simple as that, our justice and court system is not hard to understand.

Look no further than OJ Simpson. Accused of murdering his ex-wife and her beau. Lots of forensic and other kinds of evidence presented against him. He was found innocent. Why? You could argue a "star struck" jury, or you could remember the actual course of the trial and the case presented by the Prosecution and see that the way they presented evidence was rather week and the evidence handling was called into question building "reasonable doubt" into the case. Lots of questions in that case, obviously, given what decision the jury made but it's what happened.

But if someone wants to all Singer guilty they're more than free to do so. If this theoretical person is called to sit on a jury in any trial against Singer he'll then have to set-aside his per-concieved judgments and allow the Prosecution's case to be all he uses to determine guilt or innocence. If he's unable to do that he'll likely be weeded out during the voir dire process.

Again, how this all works isn't hard to understand.
 
No one outed Singers homosexuality because he never hid it. It was known & if the public didnt know immediately they certainly knew by the time X2 came out and not right around the release of superman returns, as previously stated. Remember everyone was saying that the mutant struggle was analogous to the struggle for gay rights.

I didn't know Bryan Singer was gay until before the release of Superman Returns in 2006 when the internet exploded with "Bryan Singer is Gay!" headlines. It was news at the time.

Sure, there are things in X2 about mutants which are obvious analogies to homosexuality, such as the unsubtle scene with the young guy revealing to his parents he's a mutant and his parents irrationally blame themselves, each other and say things like "you ever try not being a mutant?" but that's hardly definitive proof or reason to think anyone involved with the movie is gay.
 
No one outed Singers homosexuality because he never hid it. It was known & if the public didnt know immediately they certainly knew by the time X2 came out and not right around the release of superman returns, as previously stated. Remember everyone was saying that the mutant struggle was analogous to the struggle for gay rights.

I didn't know Bryan Singer was gay until before the release of Superman Returns in 2006 when the internet exploded with "Bryan Singer is Gay!" headlines. It was news at the time.

Sure, there are things in X2 about mutants which are obvious analogies to homosexuality, such as the unsubtle scene with the young guy revealing to his parents he's a mutant and his parents irrationally blame themselves, each other and say things like "you ever try not being a mutant?" but that's hardly definitive proof or reason to think anyone involved with the movie is gay.

Back when X2 was coming out, Singer was openly telling interviewers that the film was based in part on his experiences as a gay man:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/2003/04/25/bryan_singer_x_men_2_interview.shtml
 
Actually, presumption of innocence is the very essence of "I don't know anything, so I shut up". You are supposed to be neutral if you don't know anything. And being neutral means presuming innocence.

Presuming guilt is actually the variation of talking bull without knowing anything. That becomes very apparent when you get the answers to the question "Why do you think he's guilty?" That opinion can only be based on hearsay, gut feelings and "just because".

Back at the beginning of the thread I said (apparently not clearly enough for some posters, but anyway), that I didn't know if Singer was innocent or guilty. Sp please don't take what I'm about to say as a comment on his innocence or guilt.

However, I feel that it should be pointed out that the presumption of innocence is a legal term that only applies in a court of law to a jury or other trier of fact. Other than the fact it's nice to keep an open mind, and not try someone in the press, there's no reason why a person can't legitimately form an opinion about someone or something before a judge or jury rules on it.

Indeed, were we to try to shunt all decision making to the province of the courts we would effectively be consigning our power and duty as informed citizens off onto a handulmof jurists and unelected triers of fact.

In other words, it's one thing to keep am open mind. It's another to bury your head in the sand.

In America, you're now guilty until proven guilty.

Unless you are a white guy in Florida who kills an unarmed black teen in "self defense", then you are guilt until proven guilty... but freed.


Oh, geez, not this again. Don't you have anything better to do than derail a thread? And at least get the guys's race correct.

You lead this topic right off the cliff so maybe you should take your own advice.

And I'm sorry, only one of the murders was white, the other was only fair skinned. My bad. Let's see if a black guy kills a white teen and see if he is set free.
 
I don't have much to add to this thread, but can we take a moment to clarify that "pedophilia" has a very specific definition and it is not equivalent to having sex with a minor. The former is based on physical maturity, the other on the legal age of consent. Say what you will about morality of the latter (and there can certainly be little defense of it where there is coercion involved), but there is a vast chasm of difference between them. As far as I can tell, Singer has not been accused by anyone of sex with a prepubescent child, so there is no place for that word in the conversation.
 
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